[John Isbell]

Hi Andrew,

Basically yes. Butterfield and Dylan were doing blues by 1965. Bloomfield, Winter, Joplin, the Allmans emerge around 1969 (first albums). I'd still argue that outside Dylan, who is sui generis, UK bands (the Stones) paved the way.

Cheers,
John

[Andrew Frisardi]

Good point, John, I'll buy that. It's also, apropos this thread, a good argument in favor of "appropriation," since the doors can open both ways.

And yes, the Rolling Stones weren't nice people. I keep seeing that every day, people who aren't entirely nice, me for instance, doing nice things sometimes. Every individual is a colony, Picasso (another not nice guy) said that.

[Andrew Szilvasy]

There are certainly people who would see this as problematic, and they would be, I think, wrong.

But there is a difference between appropriating someone's sound and writing in the voice of (and failing to actually capture that voice) someone else.

The Stones wrote blues, but they adapted it to what they wanted to say; they didn't try to say the same thing that Muddy Waters did.

[John Isbell]

Andrew S: "The Stones wrote blues, but they adapted it to what they wanted to say; they didn't try to say the same thing that Muddy Waters did."
True, they even change a line in "Love in Vain." That's partly why I was thinking Dylan's pre-electric blues are a bit tentative, he'd not yet liberated himself in that art. But look at "Leopard-Skin Pillbox Hat" for tremendous blues, to name one post-electric number.

Andrew F: I absolutely agree, none of us I think is entirely nice. Which likely makes the world more interesting!

Cheers,
John

[Andrew Szilvasy]

Right. I don't think anyone owns a genre, or a form. I thought the critiques of Iggy Azalea were ultimately unconvincing: no one owns a sound. Rap/hip-hop may have originated among the African American community, but it did so by drawing from a variety of musical genres that themselves drew from genres.

But the experience needs to be authentic. If you're a rich white person and rapping about being a poor black person...well, I can see the problem there. First and foremost, though, you aren't going to accurately capture the experience.

[John Isbell]

Andrew S: "If you're a rich white person and rapping about being a poor black person..."

Wait - are you talking about Eminem?

Cheers,
John

Update: just to say this probably isn't fair to Eminem. But I couldn't resist.

[Andrew Szilvasy]

Ha! That may be the case for Eminem, but it wasn't when he started. One could say he appropriated a style, but not that he appropriated his lyrics.

[John Isbell]

Yes, he's good at least in 8 Mile.

Cheers,
John

[Mark McDonnell]

Here's Lou Reed's charming take: a man for whom cultural sensitivity was something other people did. He wasn't a nice man either.

https://youtu.be/BYcVtmShYXE

I did enjoy that back and forth Andrew. Invigorating as ever!