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  #41  
Unread 10-30-2018, 10:23 PM
R. S. Gwynn's Avatar
R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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"David Rosenthal" is a pseudonym. Do eratosphere rules still allow false i.d.s?

I posted this in error. Totally my mistake. Apologies.

Last edited by R. S. Gwynn; 10-30-2018 at 10:40 PM.
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  #42  
Unread 10-30-2018, 10:30 PM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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Originally Posted by R. S. Gwynn View Post
"David Rosenthal" is a pseudonym. Do eratosphere rules still allow false i.d.s?
I honestly don't understand this comment. Is it a joke? If so, I'm afraid I don't get it. If it's not, I don't get it even more.

David R.
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  #43  
Unread 10-30-2018, 10:34 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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Oh, I see, David R. You've just reposted the poem at the beginning of the thread. Why?

[My mistake. I apologize to all and David Rosenthal for my sloppy reading of his poem.

Last edited by R. S. Gwynn; 10-30-2018 at 10:41 PM.
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  #44  
Unread 10-30-2018, 10:36 PM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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Originally Posted by R. S. Gwynn View Post
Oh, I see, David R. You've just reposted the poem at the beginning of the thread. Why?
I don't get this either.

David R.
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  #45  
Unread 10-30-2018, 10:39 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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My apologies, David Rosenthal. I now see that your poem "takes off" on the original. My mistake. Very embarrassed.
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  #46  
Unread 10-30-2018, 10:40 PM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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Originally Posted by R. S. Gwynn View Post
My apologies, David Rosenthal. I now see that your poem "takes off" on the original. My mistake. Very embarrassed.
Oooooh, nooow I get it. No worries. Easy mistake.

David R.
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  #47  
Unread 10-30-2018, 11:35 PM
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Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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This is it exactly. If I were in Brazil right now, my political beliefs would mean I would:

a. be trying to get out of the country, or
2. getting ready to go underground.

No hyperbole. Bolsonaro has called for people like me to be killed/incarcerated. In so many words. Repeatedly and unambiguously. Under such circumstances, there is no dialogue. If you can fight, you fight, through mass mobilization, deplatforming, etc. Or you run. Or you die. And I mean die. I can find four items ON THIS LIST that would make me immediately fear for my freedom, safety, and indeed life in Brazil right now. Walter's list would be a bit different, but the point is the same: This fascist maniac wants us dead. That is really the cogent point.

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Originally Posted by Orwn Acra View Post
I don't understand (I understand too well) how otherwise decent people think this is about conversing with the other side. The other side--in this case Bolsonaro and Kimball's support of him--is literally--and I am using literally literally--calling for the deaths of: gay people, indigenous Brazilians, trans folk, socialists, and others.

Oh, and writing a poem never stopped anyone from calling me a fag. Your poem ain't gonna do shit.

BTW, you can't edit First Things and not be a homophobe; you are being paid by a homophobic institution that regular publishes anti-gay bullshit, giving that institution agency and an audience, an institution that just this August ran a piece equating homosexuality to pedophilia.
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  #48  
Unread 10-31-2018, 02:53 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Originally Posted by Orwn Acra View Post
Oh, and writing a poem never stopped anyone from calling me a fag. Your poem ain't gonna do shit.
Well, it's already done a little.

Two weeks ago, I attended one of the eight listening sessions that Bishop McElroy held in the San Diego Diocese. The fact that my poem about the Church's mishandling of the clergy sex scandal had been published in First Things gave me the authority to be taken seriously by two conservatives at my discussion table who were determined to blame priests' rape of children (and the subsequent cover-up of the same) on a "homosexual subculture" within the priesthood. They were outraged that Bishop McElroy has flatly refused to purge the diocese of priests who have honored their vows of chastity but who have, in someone's (whose?) judgment, "homosexual tendencies." They blamed the cover-ups of pedophilia on homosexuals protecting each other.

I told those at my discussion table that I had published a poem about the clergy sex scandal in the conservative journal First Things, and that I thought my own three years of childhood sexual abuse--although not committed by anyone affiliated with the Church--qualified me to testify that pedophilia and homosexuality are entirely different things.

Homosexuality is sexual attraction to post-pubescent people of the same sex as oneself. Homosexual actions, like heterosexual actions, can be--and usually are--consensual.

Pedophilia, in contrast, is a sexual attraction to a situation. That situation involves a grossly lopsided power dynamic, in which an adult enjoys exploiting the vulnerabilities of someone physically prepubescent and mentally naïve. Pedophilia can, by definition, never be consensual, because a child is incapable of understanding the full consequences of what is going on, including the existence of sexually transmitted diseases and the potentially long-term physical and emotional effects of what is about to be done to them.

Although pedophiles usually have a preference for either boys or girls, that preference does not make their motivation inherently homosexual or heterosexual.

I told my discussion group that purging priests who are suspected of being gay, whether or not there was any evidence that these priests were either acting inappropriately with children or breaking their vows of chastity in other ways, would do nothing to protect prepubescent children, because pedophilia and homosexuality are different things. Attacking good priests who have done nothing to harm children might make angry laypeople feel that they are "doing something" about pedophilia; however, our goal should be to prevent kids from being victimized, not just to make angry laypeople feel good about having "done something."

I also mentioned that my family's response to my own victimization (i.e., beating me with a belt and threatening me with eternal hellfire if I continued to tell "filthy lies" about adults my parents trusted and respected) had obvious parallels with the excommunications for breaking secrecy in the Vatican's 1962 Crimen sollicitationis document, which Cardinal Ratzinger (later known as Pope Benedict XVI) had the chief responsibility for enforcing for twenty years. Preventing negative social repercussions for the rest of the family was my family's top priority, just as in the Church. And the psychopaths interested in victimizing children knew this, and took full advantage of it.

Did my poem change anything? Not per se. I did not read it or show it to anyone. And a guy at my discussion table later later emailed me links to two screeds he has since published on other folks' blogs, in which he said that by refusing to scapegoat gay priests, our bishop is promoting heresy. So I certainly didn't make any dents in that guy's views.

And what I said did not even make it to the larger group, because one of the other members of my discussion table was a man who had been repeatedly raped and gaslighted while a teenager in a seminary, so obviously we all ceded to him the one question that our table was allowed to ask the bishop publicly. (He asked for more details on how independent the bishop's "independent" commission reviewing his handling of clergy abuse accusations really was, if the bishop had appointed them all. He and I were both satisfied with the bishop's answer.)

But the fact that I had published a poem on the subject in First Things did at least earn me a minute or so in which to present my points to a gay-hostile audience, without being immediately shouted down as a heretical liberal. So that's something.

Incidentally, I really think that the Catholic Church is about to split up into pro- and anti-Francis factions, permanently. The printing press brought the Protestant Reformation, and the Internet is bringing the Benedict Option, for people for whom the Catholic Church just isn't puritanical and authoritarian enough anymore. Those folks are about to say "Enough."

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 10-31-2018 at 03:05 AM.
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  #49  
Unread 10-31-2018, 02:57 AM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is offline
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That dragging sound you hear is not Le Grand Lustucru stalking naughty children, it's the sound of a dim poet being finally drawn into the slow realisation that this is yet another thread about journals and that David Rothman and David J Rothman are one and the same, whereas David Rosenthal is who he has always been, and he has broken an Eratosphere regulation but not the one of which he was erroneously accused.

I get (got) the message, Walter, Quincy et al, and have long since amended my innocent submissions accordingly, though I think Julie has the best approach. I wish I were that brave. (Heads on pikes, Q?)

I apologise for my lateness in understanding the purpose of the thread. I took it at face value. But I'd still like to know where the football quote fits in.
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  #50  
Unread 10-31-2018, 05:28 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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I doubt anyone here would argue that Bolsonaro's views and presidency are anything but despicable.

The question is whether refusing to publish in TNC because the editor (this Kimball guy) has tweeted support for him is the right stand always and in principle. What purpose does it serve other than to make the writer feel morally better about themselves? Julie's point about echo-chambers and preaching to the converted is interesting. Quincy's link about Bolsanaro was enlightening and terrifying, but I couldn't help but notice it was from a journal called Jacobin (clue's in the name). How much more of a reach might the same article have (even a toned down version) if it appeared in a more mainstream or even conservative leaning publication? Obviously, it depends what is being published. If it's an inoffensive sonnet about (literally or metaphorically) tending one's garden then yes, look for a different venue. I get what Roger is saying here. But if it's an article or poem that goes somehow contrary to the publication's editorial stance or its target audience's prejudices (as in Julie's poem) and yet manages to get published, then how can this opportunity to change even one heart/mind be a bad thing?

Would TNC publish such an article? Being English and uninformed I didn't really know the answer or the publication. Aaron replied to my post by telling me it was a 'pro-fascist rag' which made me think it must be something like the Daily Stormer. But then he explained to Andrew S that

'Most of TNC, with a few exceptions, is pretty bland politically: fairly solid art & lit discussion with the occasional one-liner to remind you it's a conservative outlet.'

Hmm. This sounded quite different. It sounded like somewhere which, despite its editor's stance, might be somewhat open to nuance and conversation.

Picture two scenarios on Accomplished Members:

Scenario One:

Doreen: hey, my sonnet about the bird-feeder in my back garden was published in TNC!

Derek: Boooo! CHUD! Fascist enabler! etc

Scenario Two:

Doreen: hey, my villanelle about Trump's inhumane Mexican border policy was published in TNC!

Derek: Boooo! CHUD! Fascist enabler! etc

Is Derek right both times? Or in fact might Doreen's second poem have changed someone's mind?

I realise this approach isn't as sexy as 'heads on pikes' and I'm not advocating capitulation or cosying-up to reprehensible viewpoints. But taking a stance against robust conversation itself, lest one be 'tainted' by who one is conversing with seems foolish. What's the alternative? (Genuine Question)

Are all those Americans who changed their votes from Obama to Trump inherently different, and suddenly irredeemable, people? Or are they the same human beings who simply allowed themselves to be persuaded? And couldn't they be persuaded back? Or is this only about tribalism and being seen to be on the right 'side'?

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 10-31-2018 at 06:11 AM.
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