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  #11  
Unread 09-18-2019, 08:57 PM
Julie Steiner's Avatar
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Draft Three posted above. And I've made some tweaks to the Tablada this morning. I hope hyphen in "minute-hand," although unorthodox, keeps the reference to part of a clock from looking like a reference to a small (i.e., adjectivally "minute") hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan McLean View Post
Julie, how about "small change" instead of "metal"? That would be more idiomatic.
Yes, maybe I've been worrying too much that "small change" makes a pun that isn't in the Spanish (change as coinage, and change as passing time--and perhaps also, as Rogerbob mentioned, the money left over after purchasing something with a bill, and the implication that someone who counts it doesn't trust the other person in the transaction).

The pun is still inevitable, but "penny-pinching" instead of "miserly" or "stingy" should help the coin connotation to predominate there, I hope.

Thanks for the confirmation, Roger. I've put the Post #2 version into Draft Three.

Thanks, John and Ralph. (If people don't know what Ralph's talking about, see the Limerick Photo Captions thread on the Drills & Amusements board.)

As I mentioned to Rogerbob, I don't really care all that much about the syllable counts. But I thought English-speakers might be interested in how to reckon the Spanish, since the rules about the elision or hiatus of adjacent vowels are not always intuitive.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 09-19-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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  #12  
Unread 09-19-2019, 03:05 PM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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Julie, because most puns in the original language cannot be translated, I usually think that an added pun (that is still idiomatic and faithful to the literal meaning of the original) is a boon, not something to be avoided. I think of it as "compensatory wit." On the other hand, "metal" is not idiomatic in English. Even if the reader can figure out that you are talking about coins, the word will stick out for its weirdness. It's still your call, but that is the way I view the conflicting priorities.

Susan
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  #13  
Unread 09-19-2019, 03:31 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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I agree with the spirit of what Susan has said about compensatory puns, but when the pun would end up being a prominent feature of the entire poem, rather than just a passing gesture (or a substitute for a different pun in the original) there are those who might argue that it goes too far. I'm not sure I'm one of them, though. If a poem of mine were being translated into another language, my own priority would be that the translation itself be a fine poem, and I wouldn't want a less enjoyable translation that was more "faithful" in this or that detail.
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  #14  
Unread 09-19-2019, 03:46 PM
Julie Steiner's Avatar
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Thanks, Susan and Rogerbob.

LOL, the fewer lines in a poem, the higher the percentage of its translation I'll overthink....

I've done another tweak to Draft Three's Tablada, but I think I'm done fussing now. I wish I could have avoided using the same three words at the end of both the Tablada and the Paz, but I can't without sacrificing other qualities that are more important, so I won't.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 09-19-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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  #15  
Unread 09-21-2019, 04:02 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Julie,

OK, I've got to these. It took me longer, I think, because of your formatting - I like to see original and translation on the same screen, and at first, I missed that you have just that further down the page.
Anyway, I like them in this order: 1, 3, 2. I like the Tablada, and the middle one does little for me. It sounds like Paz knew #1 and is referring to it? Which would make your rendering more logical.
I have no useful comments on your renderings, as far as I can tell, because they seem errorless and neat - except to note that I'd always thought the Spanish word was reloje and not reló or reloj. Is there some tone in Spanish to these shortened versions of the word that you might match?

Cheers,
John
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  #16  
Unread 09-21-2019, 05:45 PM
Julie Steiner's Avatar
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isbell View Post
It sounds like Paz knew #1 and is referring to it?
Yep! The five Latin American poets that Octavio Paz said were most influential were Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, Rubén Darío, José Juan Tablada, Ramón López Velarde, and Alfonso Reyes. So Paz was a fanboy.

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I'd always thought the Spanish word was reloje and not reló or reloj. Is there some tone in Spanish to these shortened versions of the word that you might match?
I think your familiarity with the French horloge is making you want to see an e at the end of it. The standard Spanish spelling is reloj. See WordReference and the current edition of the DRAE. Since neither of those mention the variant spelling reló, I thought Tablada's use of it was a big departure from the norm, and thus a big deal. But this Justo Fernádez López fellow (below) makes me think that the choice to use the variant spelling reló had no particular significance (in general--not just with relation to this particular poem) before it fell out of fashion in the last century:

Quote:
http://www.hispanoteca.eu/Foro/ARCHI...0rel%C3%B3.htm

reloj o reló

How does one pronounce the word reloj?

The Royal Spanish Academy gathers in the twentieth edition of its Dictionary of the Spanish Language (1984) the spelling reló beside the normal reloj, warning, however, that the plural is always relojes (relós is popular). The pronunciation /relój/ was then held to be with an affected diction, the general pronunciation was /reló/. In the later editions of the DRAE, the alternation reló – reloj no longer appears.

According to the most recent Spelling of the RAE (2010):

"The letter j can represent the phoneme /j/ in any position (initial, middle, or final) and before any of the vowels:

jabalí, jeta, jirafa, jocoso, júbilo, objeto, tejido, dijo, perjuicio, boj, carcaj, reloj."

[RAE: Ortografía de la lengua española. Madrid: Espasa Libros, 2010, § 6.2.2.3.1]

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

reloj o reló

¿Cómo se pronouncia la palabra reloj?

La Real Academia Española recogía en la vigésima edición de su Diccionario de la lengua española (1984) la grafía reló al lado de la normal reloj, advirtiendo, no obstante, que el plural es siempre relojes (relós es popular). La pronunciación /relój/ se tenía entonces por una dicción afectada, la pronunciación general era /reló/. En las ediciones posteriores del DRAE, no aparece más la alternancia reló – reloj.

Según la última Ortografía de la RAE (2010):

«La letra j puede representar el fonema /j/ en cualquier posición (inicial, medial o final) y ante cualquiera de las vocales:

jabalí, jeta, jirafa, jocoso, júbilo, objeto, tejido, dijo, perjuicio, boj, carcaj, reloj.»

[RAE: Ortografía de la lengua española. Madrid: Espasa Libros, 2010, § 6.2.2.3.1]
Such respected writers such as Miguel de Unamuno occasionally used the reló spelling, e.g., here. I conclude that the language was starting to move in the direction of the simpler reló, probably because people were not pronouncing the final j, but the reloj spelling has prevailed, even if pronouncing the aspiration seems to be optional.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 09-21-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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  #17  
Unread 09-21-2019, 08:30 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Julie,

My bilingual students are I think all too polite to correct me when I compare the French horloge with the non-existent word reloje. I’ve been doing it for some time. Thanks for the info!

Cheers,
John
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