[Jim Moonan]

No apologies needed, Bill. Don't bow... the double K is a blow to the heart... Or maybe you're right: maybe all sensible people should bow out.

I've always been partial to viewing things as Candide ultimately learned: to cultivate my own garden.

And then there's the adage to "think globally, act locally." I like that too. The more local the better : )
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[Aaron Novick]

Jim, in my ire at Michael, I missed that you had actually given me an honest reply.

I disagree with you. I think that money is absolutely the largest divide. Certainly in the specific instance of Kanye and Trump: it's the most salient thing they have in common. But also for understanding American politics in general. In 2015, the median net worth for a US senator was 3.2 million. For congress it was more modest: only 1.1 million. The average net worth of our recent presidents is even higher. Our country is entirely run by people whose economic interests are substantially different from (and arguably diametrically opposed to) those of the majority of people they allegedly represent. This goes a long way, for instance, in explaining why Democrats often struggle to get people out to vote, even when they're the very people Republicans are screwing over worst: those people justifiably expect no better from the Democrats.

[Jim Moonan]

Aaron, I've long thought that capitalism without conscience or compassion is the gangrene of our society. Capitalism unhinged, unbridled, is sanctioned corruption. It will and does run roughshod over principles and character. It reminds me of that annoying Christmas movie with Jimmy Stewart. It just doesn't happen that way with any frequency in reality.

But to your point, the most salient thing that West and Trump have in common is not money. It's destructive narcissistic egoism that is enabled by money. Gates has money. Buffett has money. Bezos has money. They are using it to do good, IMO.
Watching those two sit in the oval office and feed off each other's poisonous egos is where I get angry.

From my place here in my favorite armchair, I would opt for a Swedish, Canadian, or some Western European systems of providing for people's needs over our current system of government.
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[Aaron Novick]

Jeff "can't think of a better use for my fortune than exploring space" Bezos is not a good example of someone with money doing good.

Jeff "throw a shit-fit at the prospect of a tax increase that would help Seattle's homeless population" Bezos is not interested in improving the world.

Jeff "literally tortures his warehouse workers in order to make more money" Bezos is one of the most profoundly evil men alive today.

Jeff Bezos is the very epitome of capitalism without a conscience. I doubt Buffett and Gates are so squeaky clean as you imagine, despite their extensive "treat the symptom not the problem" philanthropy, though I know less specifically about them.

People with money looking out for people with money and being blind to the suffering of people without it is the rule, not the exception. Trump and West may or may not have mental illnesses. Neither you nor I is competent to judge that. But even if they did, pretending that it explains what's wrong with them not only misses the point, it contributes to the awful stigma around mental illness in this country.

[Andrew Szilvasy]

I'm just going to jump in here and say that I'm with Novick on this one.

The root cause of so much of our problems as a country is greed, and the greater and greater distance between the upper/ruling class and the everyday people that started with Nixon and exploded under Reagan. Fox News and all the other Right Wing* outlets are obvious shills for accelerating this, but Silicon Valley and most of the other media companies are atbest looking to keep the status quo rather than reverse it, even if they air some people who speak otherwise.

The interests of the monied are in direct conflict with the interests of the vast majority of the world's population. It's why we can't fix climate change.

Overwhelmingly, Trump's voters were wealthy white people (not the Hillbilly Elegies people we were sold by the media!), and Trump and his voters are essentially a manifestation of all that is wrong with the United States. You can say it's about education, or race, or whatever, but nothing correlates to voting for Trump like wealth.

We can say that this isn't true for all rich people, and of course you can, but you might as well call out "Not All Men" or "All Lives Matter."

[Jim Moonan]

OK, I'm back in my armchair to say Bezos was a bad poster boy to use. Gates and Buffet are by comparison better, but not shining examples of why economic inequality isn't so bad. (But at least they have some semblance of conscience.)

Greed is the culprit. Augmenting and facilitating greed are ego and narcissism. It's not money per se, but what you do with the money that determines whether it is a problem. I am waiting for an entrepreneur/visionary to come along who has found a way to make economic parity profitable. Something to take the place of unions, which have become trojan horses. Something else to ensure equal opportunity. Some kind of system that allows equal access to health care for all, not just for congress and the rich. Entrepreneurs that dream up ways to make their profit from taking it away from those who turn profit into greed. I'll dream on, I suppose...

I like and agree with your take on who put Trump in power. Not the "deplorables" but the wealthy -- But why does the media get it wrong?

I think we agree. I'm just flubbing up the logic. And I still contend that the salient thing between Trump and West is not money, but narcissism and egoism (both of which are greed personified). Just watch the two of them in the video.
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