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  #11  
Unread 08-01-2019, 11:34 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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I concur with Matt that an internal and inherently awkward conflict is at the crux. My paraphrase of the gist as I understand it:

‘Though emotionally I’m crushed that I’m disappearing as a poet, ethically I find it necessary and don’t know how to put the two together.’

Because sharing the poetry pie with more groups than ever before, as is the current trend, implies a lesser slice in the future for my own self, having grown accustomed to enjoying a greater share in the past without the competition. In light of this situation, I am conflicted because: on the one hand, I embrace the diversification of the pie recipients, knowing it ethically right; yet, on the other hand, I am sad knowing that the moral duty being suddenly observed to divvy up equal portions of the whole amongst all parties alike necessitates, a smaller slice in the future for me to enjoy.

‘Disappearing ’ strikes me as a melodramatic way to frame the situation, making it seem as if he had to go the way of the dinosaurs in order to let the underrepresented be simply represented equitably in the spotlight. In any event, I commend his acknowledging that the reality of things might not be the same as his perception.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 08-02-2019 at 12:48 AM.
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  #12  
Unread 08-02-2019, 12:49 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Erik: "In any event, I commend his acknowledging that the reality of things might not be the same as his perception." Indeed. The publishing market, for instance, is not a zero-sum game.
Also, it is I do think worthy on his part to endeavor to trace out his inner conflict.

Cheers,
John
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  #13  
Unread 08-02-2019, 04:56 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Isbell View Post
Speaking as an aging white guy myself, it does sound a bit like a regret that young poets of color are taking his job. Grace is a hard-won thing.
Assuming we take what he says at face value, I think you're possibly conflating two different things here, the cause and the consequence. He says he celebrates the cause and regrets the consequence. He regrets that he's losing his audience, finding it harder to publish. Nowhere does he say that he regrets that it's women, LGBTQ people and people of colour he's losing his audience to. In fact, he makes it very clear that he's happy about that part of it. I'll admit that it may be failing of mine to be overly prone to take what people say at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, poetry isn't a zero-sum game, although it's not an infinity elastic either. At least in terms of magazines and prizes that one might benefit financially from or in terms of reputation -- or to just plain feel good about, as if one had achieved something. If the editorial board of prestigious magazine X or the judge(s) or the awarders of prestigious-prize Y become more committed to diversity, then the odds of someone getting published in X or winning prize Y will change as determined by which group they belong to. And if you belong to a previously over-represented group, your chances will get smaller compared to what they were previously.

And if X and Y are looking to actively redress historical imbalances -- either for ethical reasons or so as to avoid criticism or even just to be cool, you might even find your group is now proportionately under-represented there. An interesting place to be, I think, since in effect, you're being discriminated against in attempt to redress historical discrimination. And this may place you in complicated position. Maybe you don't like/enjoy being discriminated against and its consequences, but maybe you applaud the motivation behind it and even see it as necessary. Which seems to be part of what's he's saying.

Anyway, interesting stuff, I think. From the comments I've seen in the past on various places online, there's a range of attitudes from people who perceive themselves -- or poetry as a whole -- to be negatively affected by attempts to promote diversity. This is a topic of conversation that can easily get shouted down or dismissed, but I kind of think it can be a useful one to have, if only to get some of the perceptions addressed and explored, misperceptions (on all sides) corrected and so on. I guess my take was that it was this--these views and responses--that's he's wanting to address in this article more than his personal situation per se. He's talking about himself at least in part as rhetorical strategy. I could be wrong about this, of course. Maybe his motives are way more narcissistic and he does just want to talk about himself!

best,

Matt

Last edited by Matt Q; 08-02-2019 at 05:56 AM.
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  #14  
Unread 08-02-2019, 06:14 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Hi Matt,

Interesting comment! Mostly I was looking for the job-taking parallel there, which depends on zero sum economics. I don’t think Hickok had fans who are now fans no longer because of a new more diverse generation of creators. That’s pretty much all I was saying.

Cheers,
John
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  #15  
Unread 08-02-2019, 06:28 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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If he were sincere in his belief that, ultimately, this is for the good (i.e. the diversification of poetry), wouldn't he name some of the poets? Wouldn't he praise some of the poets? Something like: "I do wish more people were reading my book, but then again it is wonderful that [insert marginalized poet he admires] is getting more attention than they might have before." Instead, you get this:

"The hottest book of the past few years is by a black woman. The hottest book of the past year is by a black man, followed closely by a book of poems by a Latina. The hottest book of the moment is by a gay man born in Vietnam."

This speaks nothing to the quality of the poems. It is conspicuous in it's unwillingness to raise up those voices, and instead use them as a foil to his own writing: they are a righteous other that, regardless of quality, are "leveling" poetry for the marginalized. They become a symbol for something (rising justice? his own growing obsolescence? SJWs?) rather than a people writing.

And Mark & Matt, yeah, getting dragged means getting roundly criticized.
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  #16  
Unread 08-02-2019, 06:30 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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He does name the poets, it's further down in the article. I'd say that what's relevant at the stage of the article that you quote is the marginalised groups they are members of.

Last edited by Matt Q; 08-02-2019 at 06:32 AM.
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  #17  
Unread 08-02-2019, 06:34 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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Eek. Thanks Matt. Must have glided over that. Still doesn't change the fact that they aren't praised in any way, just noted as eclipsing his readers.
To put names to the books I referred to earlier, I give you Claudia Rankine, Ross Gay, Ada Limón, and Ocean Vuong. Layli Long Soldier, Chen Chen, Tyehimba Jess, and Gregory Pardlo, among many others, have recently stepped to the front of the stage and taken a bow. In the time I’ve been working on the several incarnations of this essay, no straight white male poet has caught the eye of readers to anywhere near the same degree. We’re just not there, both young poets and old farts alike. And while I’m sad that certain doors are probably closing for me, I’m thrilled by the real steps we’re taking toward equality.
To you're earlier point, the essay is interesting, which is why I posted it. I don't have a ton of sympathy for him for a variety of reasons, and I think it has deserved the criticism it has gotten. I could imagine a much more interesting and engaging essay coming from your personal story. It comes from a place of much less privilege, and I think that's where the rubber meets the road in these discussions.
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  #18  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:02 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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I don't see why he's obliged to praise them; maybe he genuinely doesn't rate some of them, so to do so would be insincere. There's no suggestion that he's disparaging them, and he doesn't praise himself or his contemporaries either. The essay isn't about the comparative quality of new vs older poetry, it's about the diversification of the poets getting published.

How is Hicok more 'privileged' than Matt? They're both straight, white men. And it seems that Hicok came into the poetry world late, after many years in the Michigan automotive die industry, which hardly suggests class or academic privilege either. What is the nature of the criticism he's receiving?
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  #19  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:22 AM
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Mary Meriam Mary Meriam is offline
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I agree with Andrew S. This long self-pity party is primarily calling attention to one Bob H. He could have said what he had to say in one short paragraph, then spent his time reviewing books from the new diversity.
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  #20  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:37 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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Hicok doesn't have to do anything, though when you're writing an article about the value of diversification in the poetry field it might be useful to talk about what their adding besides their identity, if you believe that they are.

But he doesn't do that and it comes across as risibly disingenuous to me to talk about how good the diversification of poetry is while (a) setting it up as a zero-sum game (and, to be clear, the overwhelming people published right now are still straight white men, and Hicok continues to accrue a wide variety of publications), and (b) not actually talk about the newer poets as poets but instead as identities. The implication of the latter isn't that these poets are his equals, but that they're filling some social justice quotas.

As for the privilege, I meant in the industry right now. Matt is, to me, a more interesting poet than Hicok, but Hicok has 10 books, a Guggenheim, etc. An article about his declining sales in the face of diversification reeks of privilege within the poetry community to me whereas one from Matt would not, given their relative place. I also suspect Matt could and would be more nuanced. As it is, it's an article akin to a multi-millionaire bemoaning having to fire 2 of his 5 butlers.

As for the criticism: it's not people saying he's a bad guy or anything. It's somewhat in line with my initial reaction: the self-involved nature of the complaint seeming absurd coming from the source and the ways he pays lip-service to being okay with diversification while actually seeming to be more bothered by it. But yay! He quoted the one MLK speech every white person loves to quote!

Here are a variety of Twitter responses, not all of which I agree with, but to give you a wider selection:

Example #1
Example #2 (from a longer thread)
Example #3
Example #4
Example #5
Example #6
Example #7 (a longer thread)
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