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  #1  
Unread 02-28-2019, 03:35 PM
Max Goodman Max Goodman is offline
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Default Strange Presidential Race

This is unusual. If it has ever happened before, I've forgotten. A major party has two presidential candidates I think would make great presidents. And the media is treating both as though they might win. (For that to happen with even one candidate I support is, I think, a first.)

What does a citizen do in such a case?

I'm not eager to donate time or money to help them compete against each other. (Neither has yet attacked the other, but they must realize they're in competition for voters like me.) But I do want to support them in their competition against the rest of the field.

I don't expect anyone has a magic solution, but some of you smart people may have enlightening things to say.
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  #2  
Unread 02-28-2019, 06:45 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Another thing that's strange for Californians this time around is that our primary election has been moved from June (by which time the parties had pretty much already settled on their candidates) to March, when we'll actually still have meaningful choices on our ballots. So you'll have to make up your mind by then, Max.
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Unread 03-02-2019, 02:16 PM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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So much of what had been conventional is now (for the time being) thrown out the window. Just a small piece of the collateral damage the Trump presidency has inflicted.

Electability is the key.
Which two are you referring to Max? There lies the rub.
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  #4  
Unread 03-02-2019, 10:09 PM
Max Goodman Max Goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moonan View Post
Electability is the key.
Four years ago, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump were both jokes, completely unelectable. Neither of them has changed much, but now they're both electable (or in the White House).

In the early '90s there was a great Jules Feiffer cartoon, several panels of a guy listening to a candidate's speech on TV. The candidate was talking about economic justice and environmental protection and other popular, important issues.

The guy listening was thinking (I paraphrase), "Finally there's a candidate who says the things I've always wanted to hear a candidate say.

"Too bad he's such a nut."

The key is supporting good candidates.
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  #5  
Unread 03-03-2019, 02:12 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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The media do a lot to shape the narrative. When Dennis Kucinich ran, far and few were the media voices pointing out that his values were essentially those of FDR. Reporting tends to indicate a) the mainstream and who is outside it and b) who's winning the horse race at any given moment (Joe Biden, for instance, just now).

Cheers,
John
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  #6  
Unread 03-03-2019, 06:45 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Max, Bernie Sanders lost the nomination because he couldn't find enough voters within the timeframe. Trump won the election because he cheated.
Bernie has another shot. Trump is shot. We will see how this rolls. It's too early to tell who is electable. I heard someone suggest a Biden/Harris ticket. Hmmm.

I think the wild card is the undoing of Trump's mob by mavericks within the republican party. Some say Romney would be the one to do it.

Please don't kill me Max. Ah, go ahead : )

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  #7  
Unread 03-03-2019, 07:20 AM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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Sanders would be a centrist candidate in any unstunted nation. Is his 'craziness' his ability to see that all the red baiting morons who drool and splatter about socialism either have no idea what it actually is or equate basic human decency with a problem for their own bottom line. He isn't perfect and the present form of rule through representation is a shit show because of capital's leverage and the limit of the public attention span but he is the one that has the kids in the streets.
Both sides of the aisle will line up against any candidate that actually threatens the class dynamics and call it common sense or balance. This has always been a euphemism for screwing the underclass and the rest of the planet to keep comfortable standards of living intact no matter the cost to others. You will be trained to respond with "How can we pay for 'all this' human decency?" and discouraged from instead asking the full question of "What expenses of the State/Military Industrial Complex are we prioritizing that keep us from a more just and equitable world"? The natural human tendency to deny death will tempt you to believe that the looming climate catastrophe can't possibly demand a real political risk and a level of sacrifice in proportion to the possible destruction human civilization is invoking with any clinging to the status quo or what I expect might be smuggled into the idea of "good candidates". I understand the weight of habit and conditioning and don't have much hopes for anyone raised in the Numb not already fully committed radical change. But the kids are moving and, I think, ready to fight for real this time. Could be deluded. People tend to suck. But the only thing strange is that people can still believe there is anything radical in Sanders or that anything short of sweeping change, well beyond his platform, will be enough to avoid complicity in the murder and destruction that the technological society (Ellul) has become.
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  #8  
Unread 03-03-2019, 08:07 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Andrew, your sentiment is well taken but your expression of it is of little use to civil discourse aimed so as to shed light. "Strongly" worded is different from "astringently" worded and you run the real risk of drifting into a stagnant alt-pool of skepticism and intolerance, IMHO.

If you simply toned it down in style and astringency it would be more palpable to more people who are truly looking for engagement in helping to arrive at a decision. As it is, I think you do little more than preach to your choir when you speak in a voice that only they find pleasing.

But before you and Max both kill me, I repeat I agree with much of what Sanders stands for. The question is whether his voice and leadership would be more effective as a majority senator writing, championing and enacting legislation (which he actually does not have a very good track record of doing) or as the leader of the free world (as we currently know it. All things being relative).

Ah, go ahead, take turns killing me.
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  #9  
Unread 03-03-2019, 09:37 AM
Max Goodman Max Goodman is offline
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Electability is a lie. Trump's victory in the Republican primaries is proof. It's taken a long time to expose the lie because if enough voters believe it (and care, as many Trump voters didn't), it's self-fulfilling.

[Is it "killing you," Jim, to point out that you've said electability is the key to choosing a candidate, and that it's too early to tell who's electable? Is your advice to sit it out until other voters have winnowed the field? I'd like a say in the winnowing.]

Last edited by Max Goodman; 03-03-2019 at 09:47 AM.
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  #10  
Unread 03-03-2019, 10:17 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Max, you are effectively calling the whole election process a can of worms. Deeming one as having “electability” does not insure that someone is elected; it simply means you have successfully held in check your ideological predisposition to vote for someone on the basis of ideology and, in the process, end up helping to get elected the very party/person/idea to which you are so opposed.

Electablity is not a simple either/or thing. It’s a complicated, ever-changing consideration that must be a part of the mix of a responsible voters decision-making. No, I would never make up my mind about who I will vote for at this point. As I said, Sanders is a bright spot, but there are others, too. Harris, for one.

Btw, I died on 11/9/16. But I have many lives : )
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