Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Unread 01-06-2018, 10:43 AM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,150
Default

Garbage word salad effaced.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 01-06-2018 at 11:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:02 AM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Iowa City, IA, USA
Posts: 10,090
Default

Mark, I feel that most of the people on this thread are talking at cross purposes. In poetry (as in most things) there is the issue of popularity and the issue of excellence and lasting value. Those two fields have a small area of overlap (someone like Byron, for example, was a huge best seller and is still read and valued today--though, interestingly, not as much as Keats, who was not a hit right from the start). I think that Kaur is popular for good reasons (which others have already touched on) but that her popularity is of the moment because the underlying artistry isn't there. The earlier comparison to Rod McKuen is instructive.

There are many people who say that they like poetry (many young people, for example) but don't actually read any. They like the kind of poetry they find in popular songs, and that level of poetry is what can reach them. When another young person comes along who puts their feelings into a form that can reach them, they all rush out and buy the book. It doesn't mean they will ever buy another book of poetry, but I don't begrudge them their enthusiasm or begrudge Kaur her popularity. They are getting pleasure from it; she is providing it. It's not heroin; it won't wreck their lives. It is not spoiling their ability to appreciate the best poetry, because for many of them, that ability is not there. Those who do like complex poetry, as well, will find it, given time.

Susan
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:02 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,197
Default

Erik: All of the above are speculations.

More like grasping at straws (As Rupi would say)

I'm two hours post-coffee. Typically I'm very forgiving when it comes to individual preferences for good poetry, knowing that there are so many brilliant poets toiling away in obscurity. But being popular and being good at that which has made you popular are two different things. That she fills a void with such pedestrian sentiment is more a hallmark of Hallmark than it is of poetry. That's my point. Her fans will likely never find their way from reading Rupi to reading the classics because one is candy and the other bouillabaisse. One is kool-aid the other is coffee.
x
x


cross-posted with Susan who said what I said but better.

Last edited by Jim Moonan; 01-06-2018 at 11:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:07 AM
Andrew Mandelbaum's Avatar
Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland Maine
Posts: 3,693
Default

You didn't say the quality of her poems was an important part of this. You said that it was the only part of this. I disagreed strongly. In fact, Andrew's original question is exactly not about the quality of her work but the meaning and worth of her reception and how that might provoke good poems from her followers. You think you know that it can't. You used Bill Hicks to say the sum of her work was total shit. I think the subtext here is about the people who find poetry in her work and wouldn't linger for a second of yours or mine. I like what I see of her work reflecting on her listeners. I have few opinions about her as a poet aside from liking her better than Elliot. I am just fine with my sense of art. It works well for me but thanks for the luck, in any case. I think you are blind to the hubris of your Hick's post and what it suggested about those who disagree with you.

As for "so what business"... I hear you saying not everything I say here meets your criteria for relevant. Oh no. Maybe you don't like me. This is me too. If we talking particle physics and you posted an opinion by Einstein I would know why. Here we are speaking of a poet that seems to be provoking a meaningful response in some subset of younger women readers. I could ask me daughter to verify her credentials. I think her response would get be banned. No worries on me taking this personal. I honestly don't care at all if everyone in the world disagrees with me on something like this. I promise. I do think threads here on living "sellers" almost always fill up with posts about how they suck by folks who would seem to as yet have done any better. That is not a shot at you. Really. It is just a part of the dynamic here that I prefer to counter.

The first article I saw on Kaur was a understated slashing by The Cut. It seemed designed to exhibit her as shallow fool without being able to be pinned on it. Maybe she is that. I dunno. I do think it is more telling that so many seem to actually root for that to turn out to be so. Because she has succeeded, to them, I guess. I honestly don't care. I found her work curious long before I had any idea that she was famous. Not in spite of but because its pieces aren't original, at all, and many of her readers know it. She is quoting some index that they already found familiar. Walter thinks it will just pass out of memory. He may be right. Or maybe these readers will begin some new subset, adding their own images and relations of words to the index with the same forms and placements and something cool will come of it.

And she kicks Elliot's ass. No waffle.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:17 AM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moonan View Post
Typically I'm very forgiving when it comes to individual preferences for good poetry, knowing that there are so many brilliant poets toiling away in obscurity. But being popular and being good at that which has made you popular are two different things. That she fills a void with such pedestrian sentiment is more a hallmark of Hallmark than it is of poetry. That's my point. Her fans will likely never find their way from reading Rupi to reading the classics because one is candy and the other bouillabaisse. One is kool-aid the other is coffee.
x
x


cross-posted with Susan who said what I said but better.
Well, I am certainly pre-coffee myself.
But I agree. I said 'poetry' to refer to the work but if you called it a hallmark trifle and not poetry, I would not disagree. I mean I referred to it by 'poetry' because of it being called that in so many articles. But I suppose you are right, I ought to not call it that even.


P.S. Who is ‘Eric’?

Last edited by Erik Olson; 01-06-2018 at 11:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:19 AM
Andrew Mandelbaum's Avatar
Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland Maine
Posts: 3,693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan McLean View Post
I think that Kaur is popular for good reasons (which others have already touched on) but that her popularity is of the moment because the underlying artistry isn't there. The earlier comparison to Rod McKuen is instructive.

[snip]

It doesn't mean they will ever buy another book of poetry, but I don't begrudge them their enthusiasm or begrudge Kaur her popularity.

Susan

Good point about her underlying artistry, but I think you miss the most interesting part. The worth of her poetry, in relation to the original post about learning from it, wouldn't be in her sustained popularity or whether she is adding potential consumers of other poetry but whether she might trigger more poets. She is writing clear and simple stuff, showing them that it can matter to thousands, and it is all happening on a electronic note pad that those involved can immediately go to work on and instantly publish. Usually new schools of poetry are started by the best of that school and they slowly degrade. It is a wide net. Plenty of junk will get dragged in but it is a wide net.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:21 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: TX
Posts: 6,630
Default

Question: is poetry likely to be more successful if it's bad?
I think that quite a bit of poetry that readers here will value does things that will put great masses of readers off. Them's the breaks. Imposing abstract pattern on speech is not something most people do in a typical day, and poetry that's not unrhymed free verse does it routinely.
That's all pretty obvious. But to my mind, those obvious statements have the corollary that speech without a lot of abstract pattern will almost inevitably be more accessible to the average punter. A fair bit of "bad" poetry - I think we can say this - is closer to everyday speech than is typical in MFA programs, and thus won't put great masses of readers off at the outset.
I once asked a poet how she balanced speech rhythms with poetic baggage, and she said "I have no poetic baggage."

Cheers,
John
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:22 AM
Andrew Mandelbaum's Avatar
Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland Maine
Posts: 3,693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moonan View Post
Eric: All of the above are speculations.

More like grasping at straws (As Rupi would say)

I'm two hours post-coffee. Typically I'm very forgiving when it comes to individual preferences for good poetry, knowing that there are so many brilliant poets toiling away in obscurity. But being popular and being good at that which has made you popular are two different things. That she fills a void with such pedestrian sentiment is more a hallmark of Hallmark than it is of poetry. That's my point. Her fans will likely never find their way from reading Rupi to reading the classics because one is candy and the other bouillabaisse. One is kool-aid the other is coffee.
x
x


cross-posted with Susan who said what I said but better.
Did I mention I like her better than Elliot?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Unread 01-06-2018, 11:50 AM
Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Poochigian View Post
I am less interested in Rupi Kaur's poetry than in the boy Orwn met recently. How's it going with him, Orwn? Do I hear wedding bells?
Well he is in San Francisco and I am in New York and my idea of a wedding is city hall with five people in attendance, while his would be a giant Persian wedding with everyone involved. Alas.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 01-06-2018, 12:01 PM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,197
Default

Erik, sorry. Fixed it.

Andrew, yes you did mention you liked her better than Eliot. Are you sure?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 8,399
Total Threads: 21,841
Total Posts: 270,805
There are 1105 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online