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  #1  
Unread 10-02-2022, 01:19 PM
Nick McRae Nick McRae is offline
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Default A question about advanced poetry techniques

A bit of a preamble, I've been writing poetry consistently for about ten years, and in that time it's turned from passive hobby into more of a passion.

I've now produced three books (mainly for myself and my family), and am at a point where I know I can write passable poetry.

But it feels like I'm at an inflection point because I want to continue mastering the craft, but don't know exactly.. how to do that, beyond continuing to read and write.

I understand that's the idea behind this site, to review and critique. But more and more I feel like critique only serves to narrow the scope of poetry rather than broaden it. Work that's considered 'good' poetry usually has that common 'good' feel, but it rarely feels like published work ever escapes the box and does something truly interesting.

We end up narrowing people's work until it fits the mold of what poetry should be, rather than what that individual person dreams it to be.

Anyway, I'm interested in the thoughts of people who've been at this for a while. Where do I go? What do I do? Are there any resources out there for a person like me, or am I squarely in uncharted territory, mapping my own course? Do you think there is value in critique, or any other practice?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Last edited by Nick McRae; 10-02-2022 at 01:23 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 10-02-2022, 02:03 PM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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Nicholas, I can only tell you what worked for me. A workshop focuses on critique, so it will mainly be negative. You can learn a lot about what not to do through a workshop, but it won't necessarily give you new directions. For those, I have found that reading new authors, especially those that take a lot of risks and keep trying new things, can be helpful. I have had some really good recommendations of writers from people on this web site over the years, though many of those people are no longer here. If you write in form, try looking at the poems of A.E. Stallings, for instance, or Wendy Cope or Amit Majmudar. Or just play around with inventing a form of your own.

I find that challenges can push me to try new things. We used to have a number of competitions, for writing sonnets, say, or repeating forms, or giving different translations of the same poem in a different language. Those required a lot of work to organize, but were often productive of innovative writing. I started attending some poetry conferences aimed at writers in form, and some of the writers who taught workshops at them also inspired me to attempt things I had never tried before. Sadly, the pandemic has prevented me from attending a conference for quite a while, but not every poet can afford to attend them or would enjoy the experience. Openness is a state of mind. No one can teach it to you if you don't already have it inside yourself, but if you do have it, you can be encouraged to open wider.

Susan
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  #3  
Unread 10-02-2022, 03:32 PM
W T Clark W T Clark is offline
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One of the great problems with the expansiveness of poetry in workshops, is being recommended lists of poets who write in "form" (read metrical poetry, all good poetry is in form, metrical or not) such as the one put forward by Susan. Stallings, Cope, Majmudar, read them and you will read (mostly) inoffensive conversational voices making (mostly) inoffensive jokes, or telling a passionate narrative, or making intelligent observational lyricism (Stallings is the least guilty of these three, and indeed her poem "The Dogdoms of the Dead" is imaginative and strange, but it is in a minority). These three poets are not strange; they are pleasant and intelligent and metrical; but they do not (for the most part, with exceptions in Stallings and Majmudar's case) unsettle language. If you really want to read metrical poets who show you what poetry can do, read the early work of Geoffrey Hill, Wendy Videlock, Shane Mc'crae, Robert Lowell, and Maria Stepanova and Osip Mandelstam (in English metrical translation).

As to the question: I do not think it is the responsibility of the critiquer to try to not inhibit some vague idea of poetic expansiveness or newness, it is her job to examine technique and find out where it is going wrong, it is the poet's job to distinguish what critiques are useful.
We all dream of a purely brilliant poetry we will write; but language always betrays us. All we can do is try, and read, and learn. Language is a terrifying and beautiful strangeness.

Last edited by W T Clark; 10-02-2022 at 03:36 PM.
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  #4  
Unread 10-02-2022, 04:06 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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A good workshop can tell you if you've laid an egg or hatched a chicken. The latter is usually going to give a lot of hints for arranging the feathers to best advantage. The former is disheartening when you've tried to do a good job, but it's very hard to resurrect a poem that most feel is DOA. As for advanced techniques, I doubt that any instructional book is going to be very helpful; read poems, not DIY manuals.
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  #5  
Unread 10-02-2022, 04:09 PM
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R. Nemo Hill R. Nemo Hill is offline
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Nicholas, it sounds like this site might be a fruitful place for you. Discussions are ongoing about the nature of critique, its pros and cons. And there are poets up here who share your views about escaping the box. There's plenty of consensus here, but plenty of healthful disagreement as well.

Nemo
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  #6  
Unread 10-03-2022, 09:23 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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Critique only narrows the scope of poetry if the poet feels bound to revise based on the critique. If the poet is confident enough to reject or dismiss all comments and opinions and suggestions with which he disagrees, then critique can only be a good thing, or a neutral thing at worst. Post your poems, then sit back and see how people react, then come to your own conclusion and don't change a word if you don't want to, but maybe allow your critiquers to raise concerns that lead you to make changes where appropriate (with you the absolute judge of what's appropriate).

I've quoted these words of Richard Hugo more than once before on this forum, but they are apropos now. Anyone who posts a poem for workshopping here at Erato ought to pretend that every critique ends with the following admonition:

Quote:
You’ll never be a poet until you realize that everything I say today and this quarter is wrong. It may be right for me, but it is wrong for you. Every moment, I am, without wanting or trying to, telling you to write like me. I hope you learn to write like you. In a sense, I hope I don’t teach you how to write but how to teach yourself how to write. At all times keep your crap detector on. If I say something that helps, good. If what I say is of no help, let it go.
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  #7  
Unread 10-03-2022, 10:08 AM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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You have to keep writing to discover what your work should be. Sometimes criticism helps with specifics but what it is best for is to read it as objectively as possible and to emerge with your poetry stronger. The more someone tries to make you write like them the stronger you grow when you use what you can from their suggestions and continue on discovering yourself.
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  #8  
Unread 10-03-2022, 12:35 PM
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Sarah-Jane Crowson Sarah-Jane Crowson is offline
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Hi Nicholas, and nice to e-meet you,

Quote:
Anyway, I'm interested in the thoughts of people who've been at this for a while. Where do I go? What do I do? Are there any resources out there for a person like me, or am I squarely in uncharted territory, mapping my own course? Do you think there is value in critique, or any other practice?
I think it depends what you're looking for. I came here, to the Sphere, to work on my ability to use metrics and rhythm and I can't think of a better place to have landed. The level of expertise on this site, in my opinion, is extraordinary for something so wholly free, and there are enough skilled poets writing in varied styles here to ensure that a range of perspectives are presented.

But that also means that the voices here are able to critically articulate and defend their opinions, so it's probably not for the faint-hearted, or for people who just want empty back-slaps/praise and can't ignore negative critique and stick to their creative guns if they do receive comments they disagree with. Also, every community, however diverse, tends to create a kind of common ground for itself, although to be fair I’m struggling to think of something so outre that the Sphere wouldn’t be interested in it. Maybe very, very ‘greeting card’ stuff laden with abstractions and archaisms might get some critical eyebrows raised.

I find the dialogue here very useful. I struggle working in a vacuum and need conversation to work out where to go next with my work. I find it valuable to critique people’s writing, particularly when their poems are difficult to critique because I find them strong. It’s helped my practice to look closely at the poems produced by people posting on here.

Good Luck with leaping that gate to the next phase of your writing journey!

Sarah-Jane
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  #9  
Unread 10-03-2022, 02:43 PM
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Kevin Rainbow Kevin Rainbow is offline
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It is often a lot more helpful to ask "What would Jesus do?" than "what would a critic do" or "what would my ego do"?.

Likewise in the context of poetry, it is often a lot more helpful to ask "What would Shakespeare do?" "What would Pushkin do?" "What would Emily Dickinson do"? rather than "what would a critic do" or "what would my ego do"?

The key is keeping your ego and the critics on the side, and the guidance and example of those who have already done better and stood the test of time in the center.
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  #10  
Unread 10-03-2022, 03:18 PM
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R. Nemo Hill R. Nemo Hill is offline
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By the same token you may ask what have those before me done? and then do something deliberately different.
Tradition has its place, of course, but so does innovation and rebellion.

Nemo
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