[David Anthony]

Please don't forget Wales.

[David Anthony]

I was watching a documentary on Margaret Thatcher tonight, and feeling sad to see how far our leadership and my (Conservative) Party have fallen.
Please don't see Brexit as a left wing/right wing split: it's about independence.

[Ann Drysdale]

And interdependence.

[Jim Hayes]

I don’t know if anyone sees Brexit as a left wing/right wing split David, it is equally incomprehensible that Sunderland, almost totally dependent on Japanese car manufacture, should be allied to the empire nostalgia of the right wing ERG to form the main constituents of Brexit,
Wales is equally perplexing, but I think the Welsh are having a serious change of heart.

[David Anthony]

Well, Jim, as I say, I don't see it as a left wing/right wing split, and the "empire nostalgia" just doesn't exist.
And no, the Welsh have had no change of heart: their vote was consistent with their previous one, and with the English vote.
Annie, I agree about interdependence, but don't think the concepts are mutually exclusive.

[Bill Carpenter]

As I understand it, the European Parliament doesn't make laws, so the recent election is more like an opinion poll than an election. The unelected EC makes the laws. There is no line of accountability between MEP constituents and the legislation the EC enacts. That may seem reasonable to some, but it is certainly contrary to UK traditions of electing MPs and having them do what you want or else.

To give effect to the referendum, the UK should have "crashed out" (so called -- into WTO rules and bilateral or multilateral negotiated agreements) as soon as it was clear the EU would not agree to terms acceptable to the UK. That is still the case, so better late than never. There was never any reason to believe the EU would offer anything other than punitive terms. They have played their side extremely well, making the Brits tie themselves into knots and proving to all other members that secession is too costly to attempt.

[David Anthony]

Exactly correct, Bill.
They have played their side with great competence, unlike our pathetic excuse for a government.
However, they now have the British people to deal with.

[Matt Q]

Bill,

Originally Posted by Bill Carpenter

As I understand it, the European Parliament doesn't make laws

Well, much hangs on what you mean by "make". The European Commission (which is not directly elected) drafts and proposes laws. The areas in which it can propose laws is restricted by the EU treaty, unanimously agreed by all member states.

To become law such a proposal requires being passed by a majority vote by the European Parliament, which also has the power to amend the proposed laws. It is also voted on by the European Council, requiring a qualified majority (i.e. larger than a simple majority) to pass and in some cases, on more sensitive issues, it requires unanimous agreement.

The European Council comprises heads of government of the 28 member countries. Hence, the heads of the elected governments of those countries. The European Parliament, as you know, comprises members who are locally/regionally elected by the citizens of the member states. Incidentally, the UK has 73 (10.3%) of the 751 seats allocated to the 28 members states in the European parliament.

So: the Committee 'makes' laws only in the sense of proposing them. However, the elected representatives in Parliament 'make' the laws, in the sense that they make the proposals law -- or not.

How is the Commission formed? Well, a potential president of the Commission is proposed by the Council (the 28 heads of government), to reflect the results of the European Parliament elections. This proposal then requires approval by a majority vote in the European parliament. Each of the 28 member state nominates a commissioner to serve as a member of the Commission, so that there is one from each member state. Each nominee appears before the European parliament to explain their vision, and answer questions, and the Parliament must vote by a majority to approve them. Finally the Council must then also vote to approve each commissioner (by a qualified majority). So, the Commission, comprises commissioners nominated by member states and approved both by directly-elected representatives (Parliament) and by the heads of member states' governments (elected by the citizens of those countries). The Commission can be deselected, in its entirety, by a ‘censure vote’ in the European Parliament (requiring a two thirds majority).

so the recent election is more like an opinion poll than an election. [...] There is no line of accountability between MEP constituents and the legislation the EC enacts.

I'd say this is a misunderstanding of the situation. The recent election elected one of the two bodies with power to vote on what is and isn't law within the EU. The other body being the heads of government of each of the member states -- those governments having been democratically elected to represent their citizens.

best,

Matt

[Bill Carpenter]

Thanks, Matt. Very helpful. So the popularly elected body cannot originate legislation, but it can modify it and block it. And the line of accountability for the non-elected body indirectly runs through the Council and the Parliament.

We have a Metropolitan Council here with substantial executive power over regional development and transportation. Though they are appointed by the elected state Governor, the appearance of accountability is low.

[Jim Hayes]

David- “The Welsh have not had a change of heart, their vote is still consistent with the English”
Not according to the latest European election results as stated by the BBC;

Remainers
Plaid Cymru. 19.6%
Lib Dems. 13.6%
Greens 6.3
Change Uk 2.9%
Total 42%

Leavers
Brexit party 32.5%
Ukip 2.9%
Total 35.4%

Labour and the Conservatives polled 21.8 % between them and splitting this vote fifty/fifty which is a reasonable assumption, still leaves a comfortable majority for remain, and represents a significant change since the referendum when Wales voted 52.5% to leave