[Aaron Novick]

You all have, collectively, put rather a lot of effort into trying to convince me, a solitary individual who, as it happens, will be voting (or not) in a solidly blue state, to cast my vote for Biden. You have failed—I will say because your arguments range from bad to beside the point, you will say because I am irrational and stubborn, but in either event you have not failed for lack of trying.

I hope you all will put even half that effort, and preferably more, into actions that will do much more to bring about a juster world. Mark has already done so, in donating to the MFF. Thank you, Mark. I've wasted a lot of my own energy and effort in this rather tedious discussion, so I've taken my own advice and just made a donation to a bail fund based in Seattle, to support the community I will soon call home. There, as elsewhere in the country, police have been assaulting and arresting peaceful protestors without cause.

This discussion of voting emerged from a discussion of the role of national electoral politics in resolving the problems of police brutality. I assume we are all in agreement that their role is slight (especially when the lesser evil's solution is training cops to shoot for the leg rather than the heart), and that other forms of effort—whether that's donating money to relevant causes, attending protests, supporting candidates in local elections who support evidence-based police reforms (up to and including police abolishment)—are of far greater importance. I hope you will all consider contributing to such efforts in whatever ways best suit your abilities and your temperament.

[Aaron Novick]

It seems that police resignations on the NYPD are quite high right now. It's unclear whether that's because they feel insufficiently supported by de Blasio (as Cardillo suggests), or whether that's because they recognize that they cannot, in good conscience, do what they are being asked to (or perhaps a mix of both), but, whatever the cause, this is wonderful news.

[James Brancheau]

Hey Max, I disagree with some of the above. I think it's why we get steamrolled in some elections. You HAVE to compromise (esp in a center-right country, at best) and move from there. We're going to have one liberal judge on the supreme court before too long. Thanks for that .

Anyway, I think Klobuchar is out. I firmly believe Warren should get it. She believes in what she does-- she knows she's right. And the energy she has. She's tough and still comes off as positive. Hard to ignore that.

[Aaron Novick]

Minneapolis city council is considering abolishing the police. This is genuinely astonishing, in the best of ways. May they follow through, and then become a model for the rest of the country.

[Roger Slater]

Max, am I right in supposing that you do feel that people in swing states should vote for Biden? I hope so. But even in blue states, I get nervous when it comes to tactical or strategic voting. Hillary probably lost the election because so many people thought that they knew she was going to win so they stayed home, or voted for Jill Stein, etc. I don't think we can afford to take risks this time. Also, let's not forget that if Trump loses only by a little, he is bound either to declare himself the winner and force a crisis by refusing to concede, or he will take to the courts and tie things up for weeks or months before Biden (hopefully) is officially declared the winner. We don't need just for Biden to win, but for him to win resoundingly. Only an utter and complete repudiation of Trump will satisfy me, and I sincerely doubt that anyone will hear any "message" being sent by voting for a third party candidate or staying home. The only message this election will send is whether we are willing to tolerate a narcissistic buffoonish fascist for four more years.

[Aaron Novick]

ALL cops are bastards (warning: graphic)

Update: it seems the Buffalo Police Department, every single member of which is deeply, deeply evil, said that he "tripped and fell". Remember that you should never, ever believe anything a police officer's side of any story. Assume it's a lie.

Update 2: the man in the video is, thankfully, in stable condition in the hospital.

Tangential update: further evidence there do not exist any cops who are not bastards

[Aaron Novick]

Originally Posted by Aaron Novick

Minneapolis city council is considering abolishing the police. This is genuinely astonishing, in the best of ways. May they follow through, and then become a model for the rest of the country.

Update on this: https://www.startribune.com/minneapo...ice/571032682/

Still many ways they can screw it up, but this is incredible.

[Mark McDonnell]

You all have, collectively, put rather a lot of effort into trying to convince me, a solitary individual who, as it happens, will be voting (or not) in a solidly blue state, to cast my vote for Biden. You have failed — I will say because your arguments range from bad to beside the point, you will say because I am irrational and stubborn, but in either event you have not failed for lack of trying...


...This discussion of voting emerged from a discussion of the role of national electoral politics in resolving the problems of police brutality. I assume we are all in agreement that their role is slight (especially when the lesser evil's solution is training cops to shoot for the leg rather than the heart), and that other forms of effort—whether that's donating money to relevant causes, attending protests, supporting candidates in local elections who support evidence-based police reforms (up to and including police abolishment)—are of far greater importance.

Of course, Aaron, as you say, the fact that you are in a safe blue state makes all of our persuasive efforts somewhat academic. But this isn't just about you. The anti-Biden wave among some on the left, angry and disillusioned at the failure of the Sanders campaign, dismayed by the return to Democratic business-as-usual, is a real movement. And some of those people live in swing states and their influence may persuade others who also live in swing states. It may not be enough to make a difference. It may just be a lot of noise on Twitter. But in my view it's worth arguing against. When this legitimate anger and disillusionment translates into actually voting in a way that makes a Trump victory even the tiniest bit more likely, it spills over into narcissism.

The only other explanation is that there are some on the left who, for whatever reason, genuinely believe that the lesser of the two evils is actually four more years of Trump, presumably with the rationale that only this would keep the momentum of the left going and give it the shot in the arm it needs. I've no idea to what extent you subscribe to this idea, but as I said earlier, I think its an incredibly risky, if not stupidly dangerous, strategy. My god, Trump and his minions must love these people.

I can't agree that the outcome of this election is all but irrelevant in addressing the current problems of police brutality and I don't believe you do either. It was you, back in post 8, who brought Biden up in the first place with these words

One cannot, of course, count on Joe Biden to do anything whatever to address the racism rotting this country. At the same time he is perhaps less likely to stand in the way of local efforts to do so.

If you grudgingly accept even that then I think you have a moral obligation to vote for him, or (I know, 'safe blue state') at least to not spend any time persuading others not to, who may not be in 'safe blue states'.

The footage you are sharing is appalling. I can see why you want the discussion to return to the current crisis. But there's an implication in your words ("I hope you all will put even half that effort, and preferably more, into actions that will do much more to bring about a juster world") that suggest to me that you are creating straw men and false oppositions: on the one hand there are people who think voting for Biden is all they have to do, after which they can complacently sit back, safe in the knowledge that they have been good liberals and on the other hand there are those people who see through the farce of electoral politics, who are engaged and hands-on and actually taking positive action. You almost frame it as an either/or thing where one must direct one's "efforts" in one direction or the other, prioritising the things that are "of far greater importance". I simply do not get this. Surely the blindingly obvious thing is for a person to do everything in their power (which in this case is simply casting a vote) to ensure that the current sociopathic, racist, bullying, lying president and his enablers are removed alongside taking the actions you suggest. Which, as you concede yourself in the quote above, would be made easier with him gone.

[Aaron Novick]

https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=31991

[Mark McDonnell]

Fair enough, Aaron.

I've probably said most of what I have to say about both topics. I am sorry for banging on about voting even if I do strongly disagree with you, just at the level of knowing how it feels to be 'piled on' to (even if this doesn't bother you).

I entered this thread saying how disturbed I'd been by video of police behaviour. The guy in the video you posted was 75 years old, apparently. It's sickening and hard to watch. Are all cops bastards? Well, my brother-in-law, my wife's brother, is a policeman and he's a lovely guy. All American cops, then? I'm sure many many are, and it is certainly one of those jobs that can attract bad people for the wrong reasons, and so much of the footage of the protests has shown that in action. And clearly there are massive institutional issues with corruption and racism in the profession that are rotting it from within (and have been for many years). I agree that something radical needs to be done, a complete rethinking of the nature of the service. But all cops? I've no doubt plenty went into the job believing they might do something good and are disgusted and ashamed to be associated with current events. I rarely feel comfortable with reductive, blanket statements about thousands of people I've never met. They are counter-productive in gaining my sympathy for any cause.

But I definitely don't want to argue about it. I'm exhausted.

Peace. See you on the poetry threads.