[Carl Copeland]

Originally Posted by Jim Moonan

The rendezvous/tryst is between the sea and the woman. I'm still trying to make that clear.

The newest revision doesn’t exactly make that obvious. Would you consider something like “saw sea and sitter melding …”? Otherwise, I really like this version, especially the breathless rhythm of the four lines starting with verbs in the second half, insistent like the pounding of the surf.

[A. Baez]

Jim, I’ve been watching this for quite a while, and I really like the dense immediacy and linguistic grace that this has taken on. I think you’ve succeeded in Cameron’s challenge to connect the outer and inner experience and “evoke the revelation.” The dash of abstraction that you’ve retained from the original (in a since-refined form) is well supported by concrete imagery, and the n “has more at stake,” yet without being distracting. (I noticed that some commenters were calling for an increased sense of the n’s presence and others, for the opposite. I think you’ve divined that both are important and found the right balance.) This is quite sublime.

Admired elements:

• assonance in “rocks” and “watched”
• all the s sounds—an incredible amount, so appropriate to the sea theme
• the many alliterations of words beginning in s
• the double stresses of “back-dropped,” “slant light,” “dug in”
• “crease”/”cease,” which is not only nice sonically, but symbolically—the mention of the tide’s crease is followed by the observation of things ceasing to be one thing or another, just as one imagines that that tidal crease will in a moment cease to be itself (losing its "r") and merge into the sea (which the word "cease" is closer to than "crease"--the crease can be seen as morphing both actually and verbally).
• the two eyes’ seeing as one echoing the mergence of outer and inner birthings
• “honied”--You do like this word, don’t you? I think I remember you using it in another poem? It’s nice.
• the incantory four lines beginning or nearly beginning in “saw,” evocative of the rhythms of nature

I notice you’ve got the word “back” twice in two lines, the first and the second. It would be nice not to repeat this word.

I got that the tryst was between the sea and the woman, but I think that Carl's "sea and sitter" suggestion would etch this more finely. It would impart a bit of a Buddhist flavor, too!

I think that you have come so close to conveying what you intend, but I’m still hung up on the image of the woman that’s painted at the beginning, which strikes me as quaint, though I now perceive that it's not intended that way. I still find myself thinking “What the heck is she doing?” and I keep reacting as if she’s actively taking the described pose for some reason, especially with those toes dug in and those legs spread apart. It comes off as awkward and contrived, but in fact, for the first time that I’ve read the poem, it’s struck me that you are just portraying a typical unselfconscious, casual way that someone might loll on a beach. My answers to the riddle I perceived in this description keep going in masturbatory directions (either she directly to herself or by inviting the sea to do the work) that are distracting from the birthing theme that you said you wanted to emphasize. Granted, conception and delivery are related, but they’re different things, and the first easily gains hedonistic overtones. Might you add some hint that the woman is simply relaxing and enjoying watching the sea as anyone (of either gender) might?

In trying to imagine what I might title this, “View” comes to mind--it works on two levels, as the poem does. That’s just my reflexive first thought—maybe it will spawn others from you. In any case, I think simple is good.

PS--Speaking of other works of yours, I'm not sure that you ever saw the last three comments on your May poems. I left a big long one.

[Nick McRae]

Originally Posted by Jim Moonan

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Thanks for the medicine, Cameron. I’ll take it. You could have sugar coated it, but I’m fine holding my nose and swallowing. (Btw, I prefer my medicine straight : ))

I was going to make a few comments in reference to this post, but I see the conversation already went the way I was thinking, about the styles of various posters.

Needless to say, after reading quite a few of your poems I wonder if you'd enjoy escaping Eratosphere for a while and not asking for critique on your poems. Go private, play with language, have fun, and try to make your poetry into something that's wholly your own.

One of the things I love so much about Cameron and Cally's (and a few other non-Spherian's) writing is that they have a distinctive style, they've figured out how they personally want to sound. And to my ear that's the trouble with critique: you get a multitude of opinions that pull you in different directions, when the ultimate arbiter of your writing should be you. And maybe I'm off base but it feels like that's what's happening with your writing. You're a beautiful writer but I wonder if critique is confusing the matter, rather than helping, pulling you further from your own voice.

For the first eight or so years that I wrote I had almost no influences, and I think that experience served me well as my voice developed naturally. A lot of what I've written is still shit, and much of the decent stuff is a product of inspiration and the right concept. But the good poems are at a place that I'm happy with.

Your mileage may vary, and maybe you enjoy the social aspect of this site. Or maybe you actually take the above advice and come back in two years and still get over-critiqued. But my two cents would be to take criticism with a grain of salt. With ten different people, you're going to get ten different reactions to a poem, and Chad Kroeger is worth a lot more than Leonard Cohen was.

[Jim Moonan]

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Carl, I like your suggestion to use "sitter" I'm not happy with the word meld. Have any ideas? I’m happy to hear you hear the rhythm in the verbs in the second half. The relentlessness of the surf sliding in and out was what I heard, too. It gives cadence to the description in the second stanza of the surf rolling in and out at her feet. I'm not happy with the last line.

Alexandra, There is not much I can say except thank you. Every time you've responded to my poems you've poured your thoughts out and filled me to the brim. I'll be in touch. You made my day by recalling my May poems. I went back and read what I had somehow missed from you and it thrilled me to the bone! I really like those two May poems. I'm glad you do too. Any time you see/agree with what I'm writing I know I must be on the right track : )

Nick, I am buoyed to hear you've sensed a distinctiveness to my writing style, as ragged as it is.
You are not the first to suggest I go away for a while on a quest for self-discovery of my own voice without the conflicting critiques. I must admit I sometimes get disheartened. From a writing standpoint I was in the wilderness for many, many years until I came to a clearing called Eratosphere. I like the company here on the Sphere. It’s remedial to me. I’ve learned so much. I critique much more than I post because I love the light after being so long in the shadows. I want to rid my writing of cliche. I want to learn the craft of writing vs. the burst of writing. I'm learning to shrug off the well-intentioned critiquers who don’t offer anything I can use.

I like it here. Julie Stein once said that the best aspect of this forum is not that it provides an opportunity to improve your ability/skill at writing poems, but that it sharpens your ability to express oneself in responding to poems and, in so doing, make you a better writer. I agree with that. My poetry is improving slowly. I grow with every exchange of ideas. It's all good. I'll write until I die.

This can sink down now.
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[Carl Copeland]

Originally Posted by Jim Moonan

I'm not happy with the word meld. Have any idea?

Sorry for not letting this sink, but since you asked (assuming you take “sea and sitter”), I’d do something monosyllabic. Maybe:

saw sea and sitter merge in the moment of being,

Now I’ll let it go.

[Jim Moonan]

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Originally Posted by Carl Copeland

Sorry for not letting this sink, but since you asked (assuming you take “sea and sitter”), I’d do something monosyllabic. Maybe:

saw sea and sitter merge in the moment of being,

Now I’ll let it go.

Well, I did ask...

I have made the changes to that line (love the monosyllabic "merge"). And thanks again for "saw/see/sitter". Now the thought occurs to me that I could go extreme and use shorthand for that line so that it read:

sawseasittermerge.

Tempting.

Those changes sparked changes to the final two lines and I think I like it.

But now it can sink.

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