[John Riley]

What Matt said. There seems to be an agreement to some extent that what is meant by "conceptual rhyming" is actual. I think it's often missing and the poem's overall rhythm suffers. I said something similar to this on Mark's poem the other day. So, if we agree it is a thing, what is the negativity about? Calling it rhyme? Does it not deserve such a prestigious name?

[Matt Q]

Mark,

Google "conceptual rhyme" instead. You'll get loads of hits.

Personally, I think it's a good name for it. If you come across something acts like rhyme, only with concepts rather than sounds, what else to call it?

best,

Matt

[Michael Cantor]

If anybody wants to buy a bridge - or some land in Florida - let me know.

[Mark McDonnell]

Yes, John. Calling it rhyme is exactly what I'm objecting to. Not because 'rhyme' is some prestigious thing that only a true poet can muster. Any idiot can rhyme. But because RHYME is already a thing and it has to do with the SONICS of the words, so slipperiness of definition like this is just unhelpful. What you were talking about with my poem, and what I'm guessing Zapruder is getting at, is a sort of conceptual linking of ideas. Unless you very deliberately used juxtaposition of words where rhymes would usually fall which might look something like this maybe:

'He looked around the little house
and hated it with every cell
that fused together in his body.
These final years had seen his spirit
weaken, fade and turn to ash.
He thought of home, the snow
that lined…'

I can see that, I suppose...

Edit:

Mark,

Google "conceptual rhyme" instead. You'll get loads of hits.

I must have faulty Google. I just get lots of online rhyming dictionaries offering me the word 'perpetual'.

[Mark McDonnell]

It's the idea that he 'secretly' thinks his poems rhyme that set off my alarm bells...

[Matt Q]

Mark, did you put "conceptual rhyme" in quotes?

[Mark McDonnell]

Matt, I didn't. When I do, I get a few hits yes. You know what, I'm coming around to the idea. I enjoyed playing with it just then! I've had a cup of tea since post #14 and now. Sometimes that's all it takes.

[marly youmans]

The sign language parallel is intriguing...

I can't say that this description of connecting elements the reader wouldn't expect is convincing to me as a form of rhyme. It seems more like a structural tool that people have been using in poems for a very long time, and that we could find described in something like Puttenham's Art of English Poesy. Perhaps we could even say that the metaphysicals provide some very specific examples through metaphors that pull together odd tenor and vehicle pairs.

But maybe I don't see what he means clearly. An example of his work might help...

[Jayne Osborn]

Matt,
All I'm getting is a list of sites giving me near rhymes for "conceptual".

I don't understand this: If you come across something acts like rhyme, only with concepts rather than sounds...
How does something act like rhyme, but isn't sounds?

Can you give me a link that explains properly what the term ''conceptual rhyming" actually means? I'm still confused. I'm a dumb blonde after all.

I was going to agree wholeheartedly with you, Mark, but now you've gorn and changed ya mind!!! Tut.

Jayne

[Mark McDonnell]

I suppose I objected to the word 'rhyme' because rhyme already has such a clear meaning in the field of poetry. I have no problem with another art form borrowing the term and using it more loosely: a film-maker discussing how one scene rhymes with another, for example.

Anyway, as I said, it's growing on me. Like marly, I'd be intrigued to see what Zapruder means by it.

Jayne, we cross-posted. Look at the bit of sample verse I just wrote on post#14. I reckon it's a splendid example! (house/cell. body/spirit. ash/snow) I could happily call that 'conceptual rhyme', but anything just to do with a vague and general linking of ideas throughout a poem then no. That should happen in a poem, anyway, but it isn't rhyme.