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  #21  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:34 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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I find the "passion = better" argument silly, myself.

I'm also an amateur classicist arguing with a Ph.D. The fundamental weakness I have in the argument is one of "appeal to authority": you know the Latin deeper than I do. I think Ovid's couplets are better, but that will always carry a little less weight than you think Propertius' are. There's obviously more to Ovid's importance than the weight of the manuscript tradition, though his frequency in the manuscript tradition owes to his greater popularity, particularly among the educated class.

Some moments I quite enjoy (and I apologize that they are untranslated--I had to find them in my notes and then cut and paste them from Perseus.

Si tibi non opus est servata, stulte, puella,
.....At mihi fac serves, quo magis ipse velim!
Quod licet, ingratum est; quod non licet acrius urit.
.....Ferreus est, siquis, quod sinit alter, amat
Speremus pariter, pariter metuamus amantes,
.....Et faciat voto rara repulsa locum.
Quo mihi fortunam, quae numquam fallere curet?
.....Nil ego, quod nullo tempore laedat, amo!
*
Sic ego nec sine te nec tecum vivere possum,
.....Et videor voti nescius esse mei.

Or, the attitude that I admire a great deal, from Ars Amatoria:

Expedit esse deos, et, ut expedit, esse putemus;
.....Dentur in antiquos tura merumque focos;
Nec secura quies illos similisque sopori
.....Detinet; innocue vivite: numen adest;
Reddite depositum; pietas sua foedera servet:
.....Fraus absit; vacuas caedis habete manus.

and:

Est deus in nobis, et sunt commercia caeli:
.....Sedibus aetheriis spiritus ille venit.

Or:

Casus ubique valet; semper tibi pendeat hamus
.....Quo minime credas gurgite, piscis erit.
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  #22  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:37 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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Please, people! We're all friends here. Can't we just agree that they're both incredibly boring in their own way?
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  #23  
Old 02-11-2018, 09:12 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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BORING!?!?

O Miser Szilvase
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  #24  
Old 02-11-2018, 09:41 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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What? I said something wrong?
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  #25  
Old 02-11-2018, 10:02 AM
Aaron Poochigian Aaron Poochigian is offline
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Andrew,

I feel I hardly need to respond at this point, since I have so thoroughly established that Propertius’ Elegies contain more passion, subtlety and depth than Ovid’s. All the same, though I hesitate to kick a man when he is down, here goes:

As for your first excerpt,

we must agree with what Dr. Papanghelis says, “We should beware of foisting on Propertius the donjuanesque cynicism which Ovid often flaunts in glamorizing urbane adultery.” (Propertius: A Hellenstic Poet on Love and Death, 172)

Far more emotionally resonant is Propertius' assumption of the role of the man cheated on, as when he says to Cynthia:

hos tu iurabas, si quid mentita fuisses,
ut tibi suppositis exciderent manibus:
et contra magnum potes hos attollere Solem,
nec tremis admissae conscia nequitiae?
quis te cogebat multos pallere colores
et fletum invitis ducere luminibus?
quis ego nunc pereo, similis moniturus amantis
‘O nullis tutum credere blanditiis!’

You swore by your eyes, if you’d been false in any way,
they’d vanish away when your fingers touched them.
And can you raise them to the vast sun, and not tremble,
aware of your heinous sins? Who forced your pallor
of shifting complexion, and drew tears from your unwilling eyes?
By those eyes I now am dying, like a man meant to warn other lovers:
‘No charms can ever be safely trusted!’

By those eyes I now am dying!—Come on! That’s great.

As for your second excerpt,

“Sic ego nec sine te nec tecum vivere possum”

“Thus I cannot live with you or without you.”

It is obvious that Ovid PLAGIARIZED that line from U2’s hit song from the 80’s “With Or Without You.”

Your other excerpts are beneath comment.

Last edited by Aaron Poochigian; 02-11-2018 at 10:09 AM.
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  #26  
Old 02-11-2018, 12:36 PM
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Allen Tice Allen Tice is offline
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Roger, we haven't disagreed in almost 200 minutes.

Dr. Edwin Boring (for whom two of the Dire Straits are named) stipulates that Propertius is a Sultana Grape going raisin with love compared to Ovid's pressure-cooked John Updike.

Aaron's [Evángelos Odysséas] Papa[thanass/iou]vangelis, K. T. L., just says "Molon laby, baby", that is, "You want some more Yanni, please, take him, take him away. Please!!"

Propertius, Ok, ok... Like the curate's egg, and Catullus too, but parts are excellent, like Catullus too.
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  #27  
Old 02-11-2018, 09:04 PM
Patrick Murtha Patrick Murtha is offline
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Haec est questio quaerire et respondire: qui poetarum carmina meliora, poeses cum arte maiora, scripsit. Ars poesis--musica orationum, modus et metrum, pulsus versuum, et significatio verborum--est Ovidio. Si novitates stigma magnorum poetarum sunt, Propertius est maior. Sed ars non videtur in rebus novis, quae sunt similes umbris aut fumis--eae ibi sunt, et diffugiunt. Ars vera in bona et prudenti re tradita vivit. Credo, ergo, ut Ovidius esse et poeta maior et artifex maior. Et tempus est testis ad haec veritatem.

Ignoscete meae Latinae inconncinnae. Ea est robiginosa. Et ab hoc fatuus revelabitur.

Patricius

Last edited by Patrick Murtha; 02-11-2018 at 10:44 PM.
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  #28  
Old 02-11-2018, 09:11 PM
Aaron Poochigian Aaron Poochigian is offline
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Dear Mr. Murtha, thank you for your noble attempt to express yourself in Latin.
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  #29  
Old 02-11-2018, 10:24 PM
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Allen Tice Allen Tice is offline
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Petronius:

Lecto compositus vix prima silentia noctis
carpebam et somno lumina victa dabam,
cum me savus Amor prensat sursumque capillis
excitat et lacerum pervigilare iubet.
“Tu famulus meus,” inquit, “ames cum mille puellas,
solus, io, solus, dure, iacere potes?”
Exsilio et pedibus nudis tunicaque soluta
omne iter ingredior, nullum iter expedio.
Nunc propero, nunc ire piget, rursumque redire
paenitet, et pudor est stare via media.
Ecce tacent voces hominum strepitusque viarum
et volucrum cantus fidaque turba canum;
solus ego ex cunctis paveo somnumque torumque,
et sequor imperium, magne Cupido, tuum.
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  #30  
Old 02-12-2018, 06:00 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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Pooch keeps believing passion equates to skill.

SAD!
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