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  #41  
Unread 12-03-2018, 04:32 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Daniel, I'd like to address four things you mentioned.

1. First of all, thank you for your service, Daniel.

I recognize that when commanding officers and civilian leaders make bad decisions, soldiers' lives are often lost unnecessarily in addition with others', and that soldiers have little or no control over those decisions. Theirs is not to question why, theirs is but to do or die, to paraphrase Tennyson. [Oooh, I was way off: "Theirs is not to make reply, / Theirs is not to reason why, / Theirs is but to do and die."] And soldiers' lives are equally precious whether the superiors who send them into harm's way are wise or unwise.

That said, though, I honestly don't think that it's in any way disrespectful to soldiers to point out that there's a big difference between someone who has signed up to go into combat situations, with appropriate training and weaponry, and a defenseless man, woman, or child who has not.

(I feel that way even though I can't help considering most enlisted soldiers to be scarcely older than children themselves. I am the aunt of a 22-year-old National Guardsman in his final year at Texas A&M in College Station, on whose campus the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library, where the former president will be interred, is located. He is looking forward to his Army ROTC commissioning ceremony next summer more eagerly than to his college graduation. I can't help thinking, especially in light of certain decisions by my own 22-year-old and 19-year-old kids, that recent studies suggest that certain aspects of the human brain don't reach full maturity until age 25....)

2. You have significantly more confidence in the peace-bringing ability of our military technology than I do, Daniel. Unwise surgeons can use wonderfully advanced medical tools to skillfully remove the wrong kidney.

The same defenseless people are just as dead, just as unnecessarily, whether a bomb falls on a refugee center due to imprecision, or whether that refugee center is precisely and "surgically" targeted because someone who is acting on a hunch rather than on solid intelligence mis-identifies it as a military communications center.

The US-made bomb dropped on a Yemeni school bus by a Saudi coalition warplane a few months ago was probably deliberately and precisely aimed at that school bus. That sickens me far more than if it had been an accident.

Which brings me to the US's long tradition of selling (or otherwise providing) profitable weapons that get used in horrific ways. George H.W. Bush actively participated in that tradition. I'll discuss that next.

3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Kemper View Post
The much higher count of victims of Sadaam without his post-war leash (ironically, including Iranians/Persians)
Daniel, why do you say "Ironically"? I'm sure you know that Sadaam Hussein was Iraqi, not Iranian/Persian. I'm also not sure what you mean by "post-war leash." To which war, and to what leash, are you referring?

While Saddam's Iraq was at war with Iran from 1980-1988, the Reagan Administration cheerfully supplied their favorite local dictator with weapons. Saddam turned some of those weapons against his own people, and Kuwait's, and ours. As I recall, that was a frequent complaint during Operation Desert Storm--We were stupid enough to arm this psychopath, and now he's shooting at us!

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Reagan Administration was not only arming Saddam, it was also arming factions of Iranians who were considered to be more moderate than those in power. Again, one of the complaints when the Iran-Contra scandal came to light is that after weapons are sold, you no longer control their use. It's very easy for weapons to fall into other hands than those for whom they were intended, and the US has made so many enemies in the region that it's not hard to imagine scenarios in which US-made weapons could get used against US soldiers and allies.

And yet US weapons companies profit, no matter who the ultimate user of their products is.

As Reagan's vice-president, George H.W. Bush played a significant role in those arms deals--one of which took place while Reagan was otherwise occupied, having colon surgery. And that's not even counting whatever influence Bush presumably had in the region while he was director of the CIA.

We are still reaping the whirlwind that George H.W. Bush helped to sow in that part of the world. And George W. would have been a lot less motivated to do what he did in Iraq if he hadn't felt a personal obligation to try to fix the "unfinished business" that his father had left there.

4. On the subject of balance, I've changed my mind about my initial comment in this thread. I really don't think that everyone in society, without exception, has the same obligation to present a balanced assessment of public figures.

Friends and supporters have a right to say "The man I remember was a wonderful person" without also having to say "But wow, he really did let the AIDS epidemic rage on with very little government-sponsored intervention in order to placate evangelical voters who actively wanted gays to die, didn't he?"

And those appalled by the body count racked up due to Bush-supported Middle East policies that pleased the US petroleum and weapons industries have a right to say so, without also having to say "But I really respect the way that, as a congress member, he courageously stood up to his racist constituents and voted for the Fair Housing Act in 1968, so that the African American soldiers with whom he had served could no longer be denied housing because of their race."

There will be hagiography, and there will be hatred. Both responses are human.

Balance is important, but I think in situations like this, balance mostly comes collectively, by allowing both kinds of remembrances to be heard.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 12-03-2018 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Had mangled the Tennyson reference
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  #42  
Unread 12-04-2018, 05:59 AM
Brian Allgar Brian Allgar is offline
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[Oooh, I was way off: "Theirs is not to make reply, / Theirs is not to reason why, / Theirs is but to do and die."]

Err ... Julie, I think you still have some occurrences of "is" which are not in Tennyson:

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:

Last edited by Brian Allgar; 12-04-2018 at 06:04 AM.
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  #43  
Unread 12-04-2018, 07:49 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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x

Bette Davis was a bitch.

x
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  #44  
Unread 12-04-2018, 07:52 AM
Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is online now
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https://politics.theonion.com/george...bqk fxUcCF_3o
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  #45  
Unread 12-04-2018, 09:57 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Allgar View Post
Err ... Julie, I think you still have some occurrences of "is" which are not in Tennyson
Someone had blundered. Thanks, Brian.
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  #46  
Unread 12-04-2018, 09:34 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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A worthwhile Twitter read about GHWB luring a high school senior to sell crack outside the WH as a publicity stunt and then letting him go to jail for 7+ years for it.

https://twitter.com/JoshClarkDavis/s...89697999568897
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  #47  
Unread 12-07-2018, 12:58 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Yeah, HW has always been a sympathetic character to me. Compared to today, he seems nakedly honest. I dunno about the bombing. For sure I need to read more about that. But Walter's persistence about the AIDS crisis is poignant. It was devastating, and ignored because of who it was happening to. It's unbelievably cruel and shameful.
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  #48  
Unread 12-07-2018, 01:05 PM
Simon Hunt Simon Hunt is offline
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I heard a historian from Rutgers on NPR this morning suggesting that the hagiography of recent days has ignored the truth about GHWB, who was (he said) the most "decisively repudiated one-term president since Herbert Hoover;" who was torn between "liberal, pro-African American republicanism" (which was his family's heritage and his own politics) on one hand and the ascendant "angry conservative ideological republicanism" which has since taken over the party on the other (and usually buckled to give in to the latter...); and who will most likely be remembered as a "mere footnote to the Reagan era..."

Interesting...

Last edited by Simon Hunt; 12-07-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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  #49  
Unread 12-07-2018, 02:07 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Selling crack outside the White House? I'm especially open-minded about trashing a Republican. But don't push it. Actually you don't need these stories, true or not. The culture of conservativism is a pretty open infection. Look at what's happening in Wisconsin, and I think is happening in Michigan.
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  #50  
Unread 12-09-2018, 09:20 AM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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On topic: this poem in the The Rumpus by Camille Dungy.

David R.
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