Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-22-2018, 02:46 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,340
Default Greek Anthology

Two Drafts of Epigrams from the Greek Anthology

10.85 Palladas

We’re stied and watched by Death, like herds of swine
butchered, but ignorant of our killer’s design.

11.23 Antipater of Sidon

All the fortune-tellers say that I’ll
Die young. I don’t care, John. I know I will.
There's one way down to death for all: if mine
is faster, I’ll see the Judge before a line.
Let’s drink, since this is true: wine is a horse
on that road.
Walkers trudge a rougher course.

***
10.85 L1: "for" --> "by," rearranged the line.
10.85 L1 "a herd" --> "like herds"
11.23 L4: "Saint Peter" --> "the Judge"
11.23 L5-6: was "wine is the horse / for that road"

*****

10.85 Original

Πάντες τῷ θανάτῳ τηρούμεθα, καὶ τρεφόμεσθα
.....ὡς ἀγέλη χοίρων σφαζομένων ἀλόγως.

Crib: All are guarded and fed for Death,
and Like a herd of pigs being slaughtered without reckoning (without reason, illogically, absurdly, etc.)

11.23 Original

Ὠκύμορόν με λέγουσι δαήμονες ἀνέρες ἄστρων·
.....εἰμὶ μέν, ἀλλ’ οὔ μοι τοῦτο, Σέλευκε, μέλει.
εἰς ἀίδην μία πᾶσι καταίβασις· εἰ δὲ ταχίων
.....ἡμετέρη, Μίνω θᾶσσον ἐποψόμεθα.
πίνωμεν· καὶ δὴ γὰρ ἐτήτυμον, εἰς ὁδὸν ἵππος
.....οἶνος, ἐπεὶ πεζοῖς ἀτραπὸς εἰς ἀίδην.

Crib

Men experienced in the stars say I’m fated to die young:
I am, Seleucus, but this is not a care for me.
To Hades there is one way down for all. If ours is swift
I will look upon Minos quicker.
Let us drink. For this is true: on the road wine is a horse
While a short cut by walkers into Hades.

(LSJ says that ἀτραπὸς has the sense of path, which suggests to me something unpleasant, as opposed to the horse riding down something more comfortable)

Last edited by Andrew Szilvasy; 04-28-2018 at 12:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-22-2018, 02:58 PM
Allen Tice's Avatar
Allen Tice Allen Tice is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY USA
Posts: 4,047
Default

Perhaps "The Judge" for Minos, rather than chummy Saint Peter?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-22-2018, 04:09 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,340
Default

Allen,

I like that better than what I have in every way. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-22-2018, 09:15 PM
Julie Steiner's Avatar
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 5,447
Default

Hey, Andrew!

Nouns in the dative case (such as τῷ θανάτῳ) are usually understood as indirect objects ("to or for death"). However, I think that τῷ θανάτῳ is actually a dative of agent instead: "by death." The dative of agent is often used in passive constructions, and that's exactly what we've got in L1 of 10.85.

There's a description of the dative of agent at the fifth bullet point here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Aform%3Dda t

Being watched "by Death" is a lot spookier than being watched "for Death," isn't it? No middleman.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 04-22-2018 at 09:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-22-2018, 09:38 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,340
Default

Hi Julie,

D'oh. Yes, you are right, Julie. Thanks for that correction. It certainly makes the image more powerful.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-24-2018, 01:55 PM
Julie Steiner's Avatar
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 5,447
Default

Sorry to be too busy to be more helpful with these lately--there's been a confluence of singing engagements and primary election stuff going on.

Here's a more literal crib for 10.85:

Πάντες [All] τῷ θανάτῳ [by (the) death] τηρούμεθα [we are watched/guarded], καὶ [and] τρεφόμεσθα [we are grown/farmed/reared/raised/fattened up]

ὡς [as/like] ἀγέλη [herd] χοίρων [of young pigs/of porkers] σφαζομένων [being killed/being slaughtered] ἀλόγως [dumbly/without speech/without reason/randomly/unexpectedly].

The noun λόγος is notorious for meaning a gazillion different things--"word," "reason," "logic," "field of study," etc., etc.--so it's unsurprising that a word based on the root λόγος plus the privative prefix ἀ- also means a bunch of different things.

However, in this context I suspect that it's significant that the adverb ἀλόγως is built from the adjective ἄλογος, which is closely associated with livestock. The Liddell and Scott dictionary entry for ἄλογος points out that in the neuter plural, τὰ ἄλογα means "dumb beasts, brutes, animals," and further points out that "(in modern Greek, ἄλογον is a horse)."

I don't think you're obligated to keep that in your translation of ἀλόγως, per se, but the word's strong association with livestock might encourage you to play up the other word in the poem with a strong association to animals raised for slaughter: τρεφόμεσθα. "Stied" does have a definite connection to hog-raising, but to me it suggests simply captivity, not a situation that actually looks like beneficence from the clueless porker's perspective. Also, I'm picturing Death as a swineherd guarding over pigs who are taken out to forage, rather than kept in a sty. More like a shepherd in that regard.

A digression: Last Sunday's Gospel reading at Mass was one of many about the Good Shepherd--an image which has very different connotations for me than for most, as someone who paid for her college education in part by having raised several market lambs and one market hog for sale at an annual 4-H auction. (This Sunday, the chosen Gospel passage wasn't the one about the shepherd who invites his friends to celebrate the fact that he has found his lost sheep; however, I've often wondered what was on the menu at that party.)

I'll try to find time to look more closely at the other epigram tomorrow.

[Edited to add: It belatedly occurs to me that the two active verbs (τηρούμεθα and τρεφόμεσθα ) could be either in the present tense or the imperfect (continuous past). Seeing them in the past tense might be particularly appropriate as a funerary inscription, if the deceased is speaking for others in the same resting place. And now, being one of the living, I've really got to get back to work!]

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 04-24-2018 at 02:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-25-2018, 04:16 AM
Edward Zuk's Avatar
Edward Zuk Edward Zuk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Surrey, Canada
Posts: 641
Default

Hi Andrew,

I think you do a good job with the first epigram, and the swine/design rhyme provides you with a solid foundation to build on. I’m not fond of “stied,” though. The verb in your crib, “fed,” seems stronger.

In the second, the I’ll-will rhyme stops me short every time I read it. Perhaps you could build around augury-me or end-friend as possibilities. I also have a pet peeve about translations that change the original names into something English as it stops me from believing that I am reading a work from the Greek. Obviously, many feel differently about this.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-26-2018, 07:04 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,340
Default

Julie and Edward,

These are incredibly helpful crits. I've been busy this week and so haven't been able to address them as yet, but I will. I appreciate the thoroughness.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:15 PM
Julie Steiner's Avatar
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 5,447
Default

I finally found time to make a brutally literal crib of the other one:

11.23

Ὠκύμορόν με λέγουσι δαήμονες ἀνέρες ἄστρων·
[That (indirect discourse)] Ὠκύμορόν quickly-dying [am] με I, λέγουσι say δαήμονες knowing/learned ἀνέρες men ἄστρων· about stars [“men knowledgable about stars”]:

εἰμὶ μέν, ἀλλ’ οὔ μοι τοῦτο, Σέλευκε, μέλει.
εἰμὶ I am μέν, indeed, ἀλλ’ but οὔ not μοι to me τοῦτο, that, Σέλευκε, Seleukos, μέλει. bothers/is a worry/makes care.

εἰς ἀίδην μία πᾶσι καταίβασις· εἰ δὲ ταχίων
εἰς To/into ἀίδην hell/the netherworld μία one/the same πᾶσι for all [is the] καταίβασις· descent/way down: εἰ δὲ if, though/but if, ταχίων of swift ones

ἡμετέρη, Μίνω θᾶσσον ἐποψόμεθα.
[is] ἡμετέρη, ours/mine (feminine, agreeing with καταίβασις, “descent”), Μίνω Minos (direct object) θᾶσσον quicker ἐποψόμεθα. we/I will observe.

πίνωμεν· καὶ δὴ γὰρ ἐτήτυμον, εἰς ὁδὸν ἵππος
πίνωμεν· Let us drink/carouse: καὶ and δὴ furthermore γὰρ certainly [it is] ἐτήτυμον, true, εἰς on/to/into [the] ὁδὸν road/highway [a] ἵππος horse [“a horse on/to the highway”]

οἶνος, ἐπεὶ πεζοῖς ἀτραπὸς εἰς ἀίδην.
[is] οἶνος, wine, ἐπεὶ whereas πεζοῖς for walkers (i.e, those without such a horse) [there is only a] ἀτραπὸς footpath εἰς to/into ἀίδην hell/the netherworld.


Cheers! We're on the hiiiiiiiiigh-way to hell...hiiiiiiiigh-way to hell....

By the way, if you're not aware of it, the Perseus Project has an electronic version of the Greek Anthology that lets you click on each word of each epigram, to jump to its entry in various dictionaries. AWESOME. Here is the version of 11.23.

(And here is the same for 10.85.)

Okay, so after all that..."wine is a horse / on that road" might make a bit more sense than your LL5-6's "wine is the horse / for the road."

I personally don't mind your rechristening of John.

There's plenty of precedent for your translating the first person plural as the first person singular. I do wonder if the drinking partner Seleukos might be being included in the first person plurals ἡμετέρη and ἐποψόμεθα. He certainly is in the bottoms-up of the first person plural πίνωμεν, "let's drink." Just a thought, if you're not wedded to the "mine"/"before a line" rhyme pair, which I think sounds a bit rhyme-driven anyway.

I hope this is helpful! It was certainly fun for me to dive into. Thanks, Andrew.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 04-28-2018 at 12:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:44 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,340
Default

Julie,

Thank you so much. You've been incredibly helpful here. I'm going to take your revision on the wine/horse. I'm going to give some thought to change the "mine"/"line" just as I'm going to revise the first one. Hopefully both tomorrow.

Thanks for the FYI on Perseus. I love them and use them, particularly for my Greek which is much weaker now than my Latin. But I didn't realize they such a usable Greek Anthology. Thank you.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 7,926
Total Threads: 19,483
Total Posts: 251,751
There are 233 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online