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  #41  
Unread 01-06-2018, 12:12 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Andrew, to clarify:

I think her poetry is very poor. That's pretty much the sum of my opinion on the matter. I don't understand why this is a controversial opinion. That it's hugely popular is of little interest to me. People like bad art. I have no agenda, no jealousy, no axe to grind. You won't find anyone on this site with fewer expectations or experience of the 'po-biz' than me. There was no 'subtext' in my choice of the Hicks quote. It was all text. I'm not sure what subtext you're alluding to. That I'm undermining and insulting her fans by suggesting the poetry isn't very good? By that logic nobody would be able to give their unvarnished opinion on anything.

I don't really understand a lot of your second paragraph but towards the end you seem to be suggesting that criticism of her work is down to jealousy because she's a big 'seller'. It isn't. It's because the poetry isn't very good. I don't understand the point of 'countering' that 'dynamic'.

If her readers go on to write their own poetry and some of it is truly good, then great. I don't really care. I don't necessarily think the world needs more poetry.
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  #42  
Unread 01-06-2018, 12:24 PM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
Andrew, to clarify:

I think her poetry is very poor. That's pretty much the sum of my opinion on the matter. I don't understand why this is a controversial opinion. That it's hugely popular is of little interest to me. People like bad art. I have no agenda, no jealousy, no axe to grind. You won't find anyone on this site with fewer expectations or experience of the 'po-biz' than me. There was no 'subtext' in my choice of the Hicks quote. It was all text. I'm not sure what subtext you're alluding to. That I'm undermining and insulting her fans by suggesting the poetry isn't very good? By that logic nobody would be able to give their unvarnished opinion on anything.

I don't really understand a lot of your second paragraph but towards the end you seem to be suggesting that criticism of her work is down to jealousy because she's a big 'seller'. It isn't. It's because the poetry isn't very good. I don't understand the point of 'countering' that 'dynamic'.

If her readers go on to write their own poetry and some of it is truly good, then great. I don't really care. I don't necessarily think the world needs more poetry.
No, not at all, regarding you and jealousy. It never occurred to me that you would be that sort of person. You don't read that way from here. I was refering to string of posts over the years that always seem tinged with hatred of the latest award winner. I was suggesting this might incline me to playing the target's advocate. I am afraid that is all I can muster on this one. A vague defensiveness for the poet, a strong faith in groups of millenials, and a consistent hatred for Elliot. I did what I could with what I had. My job is done here. Best posts were Julie's and Walter's if we are voting.

Last edited by Andrew Mandelbaum; 01-06-2018 at 12:43 PM.
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  #43  
Unread 01-06-2018, 12:46 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Andrew,

Ha. My job is done also. Thanks for the back and forth. I enjoyed it, even if nobody else did.

Susan,

Yes, I don't disagree with anything you said. Cheers. And genuinely I wish good luck to Rupi Kaur! She seems very nice!
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  #44  
Unread 01-06-2018, 04:04 PM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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(Mark, you did say you liked her doodles.)
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  #45  
Unread 01-06-2018, 04:23 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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Mark,

Though it is only an aside and of no consequence, I am of a mind to let you know that I fancied your invocation of that Bill Hicks bit*; it well accentuated the point you were then making. I think it equally ad rem and entertaining at once.

I noticed that I liked the piece of this day at Rattle by a Post-Millennial, one Tonee Ales, over anything I have hitherto read by Rupi Kaur; the former has not been alive above seven years. I could not suffer to let my final comment repose upon a reference to some work that I personally dislike.
I sign off.
Cheers!


* It so happens I am partial to that part of standup which provokes thought as well as mirth, and I was delighted to see this ideal union of tendencies so nicely incarnated.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 01-07-2018 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Added the link.
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  #46  
Unread 01-06-2018, 04:25 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Jim,

Yes, I really like her drawings, they're totally charming. And I like her sentiments too, I suppose. There's just no getting around the fact that the writing isn't very good. But that's ok. When I read about her, before I read her, I think I expected it to be better. Edgier somehow, at least, or with more meat on the bones about her personal experiences. Admittedly I've only read the 12 poems I found online that were deemed to be her best. Maybe the writer of that blog made poor choices and there is much more to her. But, as Susan said, nobody is harmed from reading her, she's 'feelgood' and inoffensive.

Edit: Cheers Erik, we Cross posted. What piece at Rattle? Did you link to it?

Edit edit: I read it. 'I Hear Laughing'. Very sweet. And they call me a cynic!

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 01-06-2018 at 04:41 PM.
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  #47  
Unread 01-07-2018, 03:50 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Here's one of her poems.
Maybe she anticipated this thread...

'what terrifies me most is how we
foam at the mouth with envy
when others succeed
but sigh in relief
when they are failing

our struggle to
celebrate each other is
what's proven most difficult
in being human'
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  #48  
Unread 01-07-2018, 04:44 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Mark, I agree that the dozen poems you saw are not particularly edgy. This poem near the beginning of Milk and Honey probably doesn't look very edgy to you, either:

Quote:
you were so afraid
of my voice
i decided to be
afraid of it too
But in the context of the poems surrounding it, it slices me to the bone.

Rather than paraphrase that context, I think I should let Kaur tell her own story in Milk and Honey itself. But here's some of my personal story, which is similar enough to Kaur's in certain ways that I hope it will explain why I find the poem so devastating.

For the three years that I was ages five to seven, approximately, my sexual abusers threatened to kill me and/or my loved ones if I told anyone what they were doing to me. Their determination to silence me is unsurprising, since they wanted to get away with criminal behavior.

What might surprise you is how vehemently I was silenced by everyone to whom I tried to turn for help. They either:

a.) failed to understand a young child's circumlocutory efforts to find a way to report and escape things that she had solemnly sworn not to tell, under pain of death to herself and her loved ones; or

b.) decided that I must be telling outrageous lies about trusted adults in order to deflect blame for my own hypersexuality and acting-out with other children--which, BTW, are textbook symptoms of childhood sexual abuse; or

c.) feared the severe social repercussions that would come to me and to our family, if community gossip linked me to sexual impropriety.

I've written quite a few poems about c.)--a situation with some parallels to the Catholic Church's secretive handling of the clergy pedophilia scandal. I see the stigma-avoidance of c.) in this Kaur poem, too.

I imagine the poem as addressed to her parents, or perhaps just her mother. And I picture the narrator not only as a child bearing a secret that must be kept from the virginity-obsessed culture in which she lives, if she is to have any hope of marrying within it someday...but also as a poet struggling to find her voice.

As a poet, I've spent a lot of energy alternately self-censoring my childhood and trying to find effective ways to break my silence about it. When I consider writing about it, I fear that no one will understand or believe what I'm trying to communicate anyway, or that critics will (intentionally or unintentionally) stomp on my heart if I make myself too vulnerable.

These are well-founded fears. I've been told repeatedly (in various degrees of patience and politeness) certain "shock value" topics are a sensational, melodramatic clichés to be avoided. On the other hand, when I try to follow Dickinson's advice to "Tell all the truth, but tell it slant," my poems end up "telling it slant" to such a degree that no one can figure out what I'm alluding to at all. So then, in frustration, I steer clear of the daunting subject entirely for long stretches of time, and silence rules again.

Where certain topics are concerned, there seems to be no middle ground between too sensational and too coy.

But I think Rupi Kaur miraculously got it just right, with this simple, childlike expression.

And she makes this achievement seem effortless.

Or artless, some would complain. She didn't finesse the experience into a villanelle or a sonnet. She didn't use meter or rhyme. In fact, she utterly failed to employ any literary devices whatsoever--not even alliteration.

But if this explosive little poem, which perfectly expresses something I've tried for years to express, is bad poetry, then I honestly hope that I can someday produce something this lousy.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 01-07-2018 at 04:54 AM.
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  #49  
Unread 01-07-2018, 05:50 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Hi Julie,

I understand exactly what you're saying and your description of your experience is heartbreaking and horrific and your reponse to Kaur's poem unarguable. I'm so sorry. I feel I probably came across as churlish in some of my posts. (Sorry Andrew, if I did) I regret the Bill Hicks quote really, only because it can be interpreted as me saying her poetry is 'shit'. I would never suggest sonething so blunt and rude. The choice of this quote was more that it seemed to parallel the way that most discussion of Kaur is about her background, the unique medium by which the poetry has been disseminated, her readership etc, while the actual quality of the work is, if not quite an elephant in the room, certainly underdiscussed. Or if it is criticised the criticism is seen as somehow reflective of the prejudices of the critic rather than as honest objective criticism. I've repeatedly said in my posts on this thread that I think people are getting something genuine and valuable from her poems and that the experience isn't a shallow one. My objection isn't about her simplicity or choice of form either. I don't think for a moment her poems would be better as villanelles or sonnets. I like free verse. I like simplicity. Nor is it about her subject matter. I certainly don't agree with critics who have told you in the past that certain subjects are taboo and will be considered sensational, or gauche or melodramatic. I don't have any of the fashionable prejudice against 'confessional' poetry; half of my own poems are basically me self-indulgently raking up my past. For me Kaur's poetry just doesn't do it because it tips too often beyond heart-on-sleeve simplicity and into a cliched inspirational feel-good fuzziness that leaves me cold. I hope this honest opinion doesn't render me heartless or elitist, because I'm sure I'm neither.

All the best. I'm very happy to see you back here btw.

Mark

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 01-07-2018 at 08:14 AM.
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  #50  
Unread 01-07-2018, 09:04 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Mark and Julie, thanks for continuing this discussion.
I've been spun into a quandary. Remorse is a painful thing. I'm impugning my own harsh assessment of what is or is not meaningful poetry. I can't help myself it seems. I do it every time.

On the other side now, finally, I feel like a small epiphany has come over me as this discussion takes a turn. It's not something I can articulate at the moment. Or maybe never will. It has to do with a poem finding it's audience and vice versa. I'm at least glad to have this opportunity to revise my thinking. Candy. Bouillabaisse. No. Good poetry is the alchemy of both steeped in context.

To take Julie's example:

you were so afraid
of my voice
i decided to be
afraid of it too


and broadening it's meaning by placing it in the context of the other poems that surround it is profound. It means that the collection of poems in Milk and Honey are really one poem.

Mark, I admire your approach to writing poetry and think you often unearth meaning and insight by your dogged digging. And your criticism is offered in the same fashion IMO. You are digging still, here, on Kaur's poetry.

Julie, your perspective strikes me at my core (to paraphrase your words on what Kaur's poem above did to you). Thanks for relating your own experiences to it so that I can see. You are a poet that has had that very effect with your own poetry on me.

Genuine is the best word I can come up with at the moment. Be genuine. The rest is less important.

Andrew M.'s daughter would know.
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