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Old 11-11-2017, 06:23 AM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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Surely the obvious problem is why women feel they can't come forward and name names more than that they fail to do so. The culture, as a whole, hasn't made that anything but a high risk move for women. We should be listening for them to hear how we can change that quickly and clearly, right? I don't buy the silent women as much as the silenced women. Even more so I buy the deaf society.

Last edited by Andrew Mandelbaum; 11-11-2017 at 06:46 AM.
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2017, 07:39 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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On that note, and to delve in politics for a moment, it astonished me that Roy Moore's supporters called for his multiple accusers to take a polygraph test. Not, for instance, Roy Moore himself, who has labeled them all liars. Apparently modern American culture does not find that weird, or at least not weird enough to mention.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:51 AM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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To be a Roy Moore supporter necessitates certain neural pathways, all of which are "astonishing", but yeah...that.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:51 AM
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Jan Iwaszkiewicz Jan Iwaszkiewicz is offline
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Except for the gender bits what Anne said.

I always have a worry about those who rush to take the moral high ground.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:53 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Excellent point, John. That they call for polygraph tests on the accusers and not the accused is deplorable. They are deplorable. They are The Deplorables
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  #16  
Old 11-11-2017, 07:58 AM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Drysdale View Post
This was a large part of the reason that I crept away from Facebook for a while. I don't want to be part of this public discussion because I have got the feeling that there is a crowd of shadowy observers lapping up the gossipy details - "go on, darlin' - show us yer bits..."

Social media are not the right arena for serious accusations of this nature. There is no proper right of reply or sensible expectation of redress. Like the thoughtless sharing of over-explicit photographs, it will end in tears.

I still can't read whatever the original link led to, so I may well be completely out of order here; I am basing this response solely on Sam's last post.

I am a woman (up to a point) and, like Bartleby, I would prefer not to. Other women may, of course, do as they see fit.

However, may I make a serious request? Please do not let anything of this accusatory nature overlap into Eratosphere.
I see your point, Anne. Particularly the "come on, baby, gives us the images bit". Important dimension. But the entire discussion is taking place on social media. How would it not, at this point? Maybe you mean something else than I think? I suppose it was inevitable that an inaccessible original subject of the thread would lead us each to our own concerns. But I always value yours.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:05 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Ann: "However, may I make a serious request? Please do not let anything of this accusatory nature overlap into Eratosphere."

I agree. I, too, am conflicted.

But more, I'm exhausted from witnessing the constant drumbeat of hatred and finger pointing and politicization of our world through the lens of social media. Social media is very good at shining a glaring, blinding spotlight on things but terrible at conflict resolution.

I have this idea that anything posted on social media should be made to disappear in 24 hours, never to be seen again. It goes into the virtual dustbin in the sky. The end. Let it spark discussion but for God's sake don't let it steer discussion. It's deaf, dumb and blind (social media). It's, largely, voyeurism.

Last edited by Jim Moonan; 11-11-2017 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:11 AM
Susan McLean Susan McLean is offline
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The men I was sexually harassed by in my youth are dead now, so to name them would not change their behavior and would feel like a rather petty revenge on my part. On the other hand, the current moment is an opportunity for women to let men know exactly how it feels to the women when men abuse their power and what it costs those men in the long run. I think that certain behaviors that some men think are just a naughty thrill are seen by the women as a violation of their personal space and right to choose, a denial of their own value as a person. It can forever change the attitude that the woman has toward the man, so that the way in which he will be remembered can go from admiration and respect to anger and repulsion. Women need older mentors and role models who can guide them in their growth toward whatever goals they have. In a world in which most people of achievement were men (the world I grew up in and that still exists, though to a lesser extent), women had no choice but to respect and look for guidance from men, which put them in a very tricky bind.

When I once approached a famous science fiction writer at a conference to tell him how much I admired his work, I was shocked when he grabbed me and forcefully kissed me on the mouth. Although I later saw him at other conferences, I never went near him again, and my opinion of him changed irreversibly. I could have learned something from him if he had talked to me instead of kissing me. A much worse situation occurred when I was taking a class from a well-known classicist/translator (I myself had goals of being a translator at the time). As he was lecturing, he wandered around the room and wound up standing behind me and resting his hands on my shoulders as he spoke to the whole class. I was intensely uncomfortable with this, but did not feel that I could speak up about it. However, if he could treat me that way in front of a class, I was never going to speak to him alone. He went from being a potential mentor to being someone I shunned, and instead of trying to become a translator then, I did not try translating again for another twenty years. He could have been someone I would remember fondly as a mentor; instead, he was a roadblock I had to go around.

Susan
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