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  #11  
Unread 06-01-2020, 05:37 AM
R. Nemo Hill's Avatar
R. Nemo Hill R. Nemo Hill is offline
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Mark, I wasn't at all speaking to you about the status quo, just speaking generally.

Nemo
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  #12  
Unread 06-01-2020, 07:12 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is online now
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Sorry, Nemo, my mistake. Thanks for clarifying.

How many times have I said I should stick to poetry?
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  #13  
Unread 06-01-2020, 11:43 AM
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Joe Biden, who is a completely fucking useless piece of shit, supports cops shooting unarmed people

Last edited by Aaron Novick; 06-01-2020 at 12:19 PM. Reason: updated link
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  #14  
Unread 06-01-2020, 12:22 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is online now
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Aaron, is there actual footage of him saying this? I can't find it in your Twitter link and another guy responds that what Biden actually said was if a cop were being attacked by someone with a knife they should shoot them in the leg. Which is still really not nice, but very different.

(and this is me sticking to poetry)

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 06-01-2020 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  #15  
Unread 06-01-2020, 12:24 PM
Aaron Novick's Avatar
Aaron Novick Aaron Novick is offline
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Well, Biden clearly specified that the person is unarmed, then switched mid-sentence to the person having a knife, so maybe it's just his dementia talking.

But in any event, no cop should shoot anyone, ever, under any circumstances.
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  #16  
Unread 06-01-2020, 12:33 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is online now
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I just saw your updated link, with the clip. He says "an unarmed person coming at you with a knife or something". He's rambling. Presumably he's using unarmed to mean 'not carrying a gun'.
It's a shit choice in November. But it's either Trump or Biden isn't it? (Get shot in the heart or the leg)

I would agree with your last sentence, but change 'cop' to 'person'. In a perfect world. In England hardly anyone does shoot anyone, but in the US you have that 2nd amendment thing, which in retrospect seems like one of the world's great bad ideas.

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 06-01-2020 at 02:45 PM.
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  #17  
Unread 06-01-2020, 03:13 PM
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Aaron Novick Aaron Novick is offline
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Well, I would insist that changing "cop" to "person" and shifting the context of my statement—which was made in and for our imperfect world—to an unachievable perfect world rather changes its meaning. I agree with you that a world where folks did not shoot one another would be quite nice, but it's just not relevant to what I was talking about.

When a cop, who represents the state, shoots an innocent person (and, not having been found guilty by a jury of their peers, the victims of police violence are necessarily innocent), it is qualitatively different than when a civilian shoots a person.
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  #18  
Unread 06-01-2020, 04:05 PM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is online now
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I think it is relevant. My imagining of a perfect world was really to highlight the fact that this current situation isn't one. I thought my last sentence made that point clear by comparing the US to England. Not that England is anything close to perfect. But stuck, as we are, discussing the very imperfect world of the US where the police are armed and the citizens have a constitutional right to be, I can think of occasions where I'd be grateful for a police officer to shoot someone, because I probably wouldn't be able to bring myself to. An active shooter situation for example, where half a dozen people have been killed already. I'd rather the gunman was disarmed by a bullet in the leg before he could make it double figures. I certainly wouldn't rejoice in it, but as a hard choice in this real, imperfect world I'd prefer it to the alternative, wouldn't you? I wouldn't worry too much about the gunman being technically innocent, having not been convicted by a jury at that moment. And I'm not talking about an "unachievable perfect world". This kind of thing happens here once in a generation and in the US about once every couple of weeks. The US alone among rich countries has a huge problem with gun violence that the rest of the world just doesn't. Why should it be that imagining something different to this is to imagine an "unachievable perfect world?"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._countries.png

But we're kind of talking about two separate issues: police brutality/racism, and general gun violence. And none of this is to suggest that the US police don't have a massive problem with institutional racism and that they use disproportionate and often deadly force against black people. They clearly do and it's disgusting and it needs to stop. The police need to get their house in order; the culture of silence and protection needs to end and bad cops need to be dealt with immediately and forcefully by the legal system. Until that happens there will be riots. And under four more years of Trump I think they will get worse and people will probably die, because people are angry under Trump. People who are against Trump are obviously angry and his supporters are angry by default. Some of them positively want a race war. These current riots and demonstrations are already the worst since 1968, I hear.

I agree that for Joe Biden to start talking about 'better' ways for cops to shoot people is incredibly insensitive right now, but I imagine he was responding (clumsily, rambling) to a question from the audience in that clip. I doubt he said it apropos of nothing. Perhaps he is "a completely fucking useless piece of shit" but is he worse than the person occupying the presidency right now? Is there a viable third choice right now? Nobody relishes having to vote for the lesser of two evils and I've heard a lot of scorn poured on people who accept that's what they are going to do in voting for Biden. If I was a US citizen I would have wanted Bernie Sanders for the nominee. That's where my politics most align. But right now I would be firmly resigned to voting for Biden because what's the alternative? Voting for Joe Biden doesn't equate to smugly embracing the status quo, and it isn't an endorsement of him or his policies. It's a simple choice to make in a voting booth where the only other realistic alternative is Trump. And it seems to me that getting rid of that sociopathic thug has to be the priority, after which America can have something of a breather while it thinks about a way forward. I don't understand left-wing vitriol against Biden. I mean, I completely understand it emotionally in terms of a personal dislike of him and his policies, but right now how can it be anything but counter-productive? I know there's a left-wing school of thought that would actually prefer a Trump win. I've seen people toying with this idea under the logic that it will galvanise the left and facilitate some grand plan where everything works out perfectly next time, whereas a Democrat win would breed complacency. This seems incredibly risky to me.

Or is there something I'm missing? There may we. There often is.

All the best

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 06-04-2020 at 02:57 AM. Reason: clarity
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  #19  
Unread 06-01-2020, 06:24 PM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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x
During the Obama years we had at long last finally found a way to keep our eye on the ball and we even began to bounce it. Youth was rising. Then came the 2016 debacle.
The biggest mistake IMO was that we took our eye off the ball at that point and instead focused on the train wreck that is Trump. Turn around. The ball is over there. Go pick it up and do something. Best place to start? Why not visit the links below? Read his most recent statements on what condition our condition is in. There is no "better" or "worse" idea than that. There are other ways to be sure (see Julie's and others suggestions) but why not at least go hear what he is saying. He's got 55 million followers. Be one of them.

https://www.obama.org

https://www.facebook.com/barackobama/
x
x
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  #20  
Unread 06-01-2020, 10:00 PM
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Aaron Novick Aaron Novick is offline
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I have no interest in being the follower of someone whose most noteworthy legacies are record deportations and drone-bombing of children.
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