[Aaron Novick]

Mark, come on. It's really annoying to type out a serious argument and then have you reduce it to something obviously stupid like this: "Well, it seems quite a leap from thinking his work has some literary merit to him winning a nobel prize." Yes, that would be quite a leap, which is why I didn't make it. My central point (whose centrality I signaled by saying it twice, at the very start and very end of my post) was this:

I think there is a serious case to be made that he has helped to invent and more or less perfected twitter as a literary medium.

I think there is a serious case to be made for him as an innovator and hugely influential figure in a new medium.

The point about literary merit was a response to your claim that he seems like the stuff your 12yo giggles at in the car, which seems to imply that he lacks literary merit.

My point regarding Dylan is that the Nobel Prize for literature is not traditionally given to composers of folk songs, not that folk songs are not traditional. I'd really appreciate it if you tried interpreting my posts on the assumption that, as a reasonably intelligent albeit fallible guy, I'm probably not saying things that are transparently stupid or false. Thanks.

[Aaron Novick]

Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell

This is like saying the world's best kazoo player is by definition a better musician than the world's third best concert pianist.

Sure, if you think twitter is an inherently inferior or easier medium to be good at than writing folk songs, but I can't think of any good arguments for that position.

[Andrew Szilvasy]

Only if the kazoo player reached millions of people and perhaps many more than the concert pianist.

@dril has 1.31 followers and is very clearly a performance artist. I think that's like Dylan, whose lyrics are fine to good but not Nobel worthy alone. Like a dramatist, performance brings it alive.

Further, while I don't subscribe to the "popular means it's good" mantra, most purely ephemeral things fade away pretty quickly. Rupi Kaur, for instance, only published milk and honey 5 years ago. @dril has been owning Twitter since 2008.

Twitter is a transformational medium that has literally brought down governments. @dril wins Twitter. That has to be worth something. Monty Python is great and better at what they do (comedy) than what @dril does, but Monty Python is a group, as are Brass Eye and a number of the other things you've mentioned. It's collective, and I think that's why film or TV-writers aren't considered for the Nobel: the Nobel is a one person award, and it (rightly or wrongly) eschews collectives.

[Mark McDonnell]

Sorry Aaron, I did assume you were serious about discussing whether he should get a nobel prize when you said

Yes, discuss seriously. I think there is a serious case to be made that he has helped to invent and more or less perfected twitter as a literary medium, and I do think his work has literary merit..

So I don't know why you think I'm reducing your argument to something obviously stupid by saying 'Well, it seems quite a leap from thinking his work has some literary merit to him winning a nobel prize'. You titled the thread 'Give the Nobel Prize in literature to @dril'! What am I missing?

I went on to make lots of other points after that suggesting that he isn't doing anything particularly innovative as far as I can see. I am taking your argument seriously. I'm responding to your call to 'discuss'.

Do I think twitter is an inherently inferior or easier medium to be good at than writing folk songs? Well yes I do. Apparently the poet Patricia Lockwood likes @dril too and she's 'good' at twitter. This from her wikipedia page

The Atlantic named Lockwood to its list of "The Best Tweets of All Time", where she was the only author included twice.[11] In response to Lockwood's popular tweet ".@parisreview So is paris any good or not," The Paris Review has twice issued reviews of Paris

Is that being 'good at twitter'? Making faux naive irony drenched jokes? Wow. Awesome. Seems like the Paris Review is falling over itself to be hip there. Or maybe I'm missing something, because I'm not on the platform. What does it mean to be 'good at twitter'?

So. My 'arguments for my position':

Here's @dril

'user named " beavis_sinatra " has been terrorizing me since 2004, by sending me pictures of cups that are too close to the edge of the table'

Here's Bob Dylan

The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carol

William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gath’rin’
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain’t the time for your tears

William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain’t the time for your tears

Hattie Carroll was a maid of the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn’t even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain’t the time for your tears

In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all’s equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain’t pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught ’em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin’ that way without warnin’
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now’s the time for your tears


Here's @dril

'"im not owned! im not owned!!", i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into a corn cob'


Here's Bob Dylan

Tombstone Blues

The sweet pretty things are in bed now of course
The city fathers they’re trying to endorse
The reincarnation of Paul Revere’s horse
But the town has no need to be nervous

The ghost of Belle Starr she hands down her wits
To Jezebel the nun she violently knits
A bald wig for Jack the Ripper who sits
At the head of the chamber of commerce

Mama’s in the fact’ry
She ain’t got no shoes
Daddy’s in the alley
He’s lookin’ for the fuse
I’m in trouble
With the tombstone blues

The hysterical bride in the penny arcade
Screaming she moans, “I’ve just been made”
Then sends out for the doctor who pulls down the shade
Says, “My advice is to not let the boys in”

Now the medicine man comes and he shuffles inside
He walks with a swagger and he says to the bride
“Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride
You will not die, it’s not poison!

Well, John the Baptist after torturing a thief
Looks up at his hero the Commander-in-Chief
Saying, “Tell me great hero, but please make it brief
Is there a hole for me to get sick in?”

The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly
Saying, “Death to all those who would whimper and cry”
And dropping a barbell he points to the sky
Saying, “The sun’s not yellow it’s chicken”

The king of the Philistines his soldiers to save
Puts jawbones on their tombstones and flatters their graves
Puts the pied pipers in prison and fattens the slaves
Then sends them out to the jungle

Gypsy Davey with a blowtorch he burns out their camps
With his faithful slave Pedro behind him he tramps
With a fantastic collection of stamps
To win friends and influence his uncle

The geometry of innocent flesh on the bone
Causes Galileo’s math book to get thrown
At Delilah who sits worthlessly alone
But the tears on her cheeks are from laughter

Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after

Where Ma Rainey and Beethoven once unwrapped their bedroll
Tuba players now rehearse around the flagpole
And the National Bank at a profit sells road maps for the soul
To the old folks home and the college

Now I wish I could write you a melody so plain
That could hold you dear lady from going insane
That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain
Of your useless and pointless knowledge

Mama’s in the fact’ry
She ain’t got no shoes
Daddy’s in the alley
He’s lookin’ for the fuse
I’m in trouble
With the tombstone blues


Those @dril tweets were from his 'Top Ten Best' btw, so I'm giving him his best shot.

Cross-posted with Andrew. To whose arguments I say that several stand-up comedians should be winning the Nobel in that case. And also

Twitter is a transformational medium that has literally brought down governments. @dril wins Twitter. That has to be worth something.

Well, Twitter is all things to all kinds of people: it brings down governments, it discusses obscure 70s Brazilian funk albums, it promotes terrorism, it shares child pornography. It's like saying words are a transformational medium. @dril seems to have 1.3 million followers. Trump has 32 million or thereabouts. Maybe he 'wins/owns Twitter'

[Andrew Szilvasy]

The Beavis-Sinatra and corncob posts are brilliant. Frankly, I like them both more than the two Dylan songs you posted. I also think they are more culturally relevant.

[John Isbell]

The Book of Lists put a photo of Franz Liszt at the end of their book back in the 1970s. Sorry, Paris Review, the joke is better and they did it first.

Cheers,
John

[Andrew Szilvasy]

Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell

Cross-posted with Andrew. To whose arguments I say that several stand-up comedians should be winning the Nobel in that case.

I think it may depend on how much improvisation the comedians use.

Further, I wonder if most comedians cross linguistic boundaries. I'd wager @dril does better as Twitter is almost it's own language. I can follow and laugh at French and German accounts in a way I can't watch French or German stand-up, and French and German stand-up might not resonate with me because it's so thoroughly tied to the moment and to the culture.

That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to a comedian winning it. Once it went to Dylan, why couldn't it have gone to George Carlin or Mitch Hedberg, to pick two almost at random (the latter somewhat subsumed into @dril's art).

[Aaron Novick]

"People had written satirical poems before Swift, so there was nothing original in Swift's perfection of the satirical novel."

Do you see why that's a bad argument? Then I trust you also see why your arguments that @dril isn't an innovator are bad.

"I compared a single lyric poem by X to a single novel by Y and determined that, since the novel was more difficult to write, novels are inherently superior to lyric poems and Y is an inherently better author than X. We should never award the Nobel Prize to lyric poets."

Do you see why that's a bad argument? Then I trust you also see why comparing a single @dril tweet to a single Dylan song is a useless comparison. As I've said (and as the original article says), @dril has created an entire persona across his output, which should be considered collectively. Leaving aside that Dylan isn't especially to my taste, I'd say their @dril's output is of at least comparable quality and was comparably difficult to generate.

[Mark McDonnell]

But Aaron, I was just responding to the reasons you gave for why @dril was so good: that he uses deliberate grammatical errors, that he is a developed satirical persona, that he has influenced language etc. I just pointed out that none of this is original. Other than these things, I haven't heard any convincing arguments that what he does is of much literary merit. So he does it on Twitter. So what? It's still just words. Comparing the 17th century formal innovation of the novel to tweets, as if tweets are some incredible new literary form, is just nonsense. Tell me what is unique about the tweet in literary terms that hadn't already been 'perfected' in aphorisms, jokes, bathroom wall graffiti, pithy statements of any description. His tweets satirise the illiteracy and mindset and obsessions of the 'typical' twitter user that's all.

And I clearly wasn't saying the Dylan songs are better because they're longer and therefore more difficult to write. I just think they're better. And that Dylan's body of work from 63 to 75, say, with its thematic consistency and variety and richness over hundreds of songs is better than @dril's body of work from 2008 to 2018. Obviously I'm making assumptions here because I hadn't heard of @dril until tonight and it ultimately all comes down to personal taste anyway. But I'll sleep easy with my assumptions and my taste, as I'm sure you will in your insistence that @dril is better than Bob Dylan.

Oh come come. I win. You're owned. You're owned and you're a corncob.

[Andrew Szilvasy]

Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell

Tell me what is unique about the tweet in literary terms that hadn't already been 'perfected' in aphorisms, jokes, bathroom wall graffiti, pithy statements of any description.

Tell me one thing anyone who won the Nobel prize did that was innovative?

You're making up standards that the actual winners haven't actually lived up to, and that includes Dylan.