Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 02-08-2017, 04:01 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default William Carlos Williams as formalist

Can we have a vote? Is contemporary poetry better off since WCW abandoned formal verse for free verse? Some bemoan and decry the influence of the dreaded Wheelbarrow. I feel the exact opposite.

I vote a resounding yes!

Here's just one example of the kind of poetry William Carlos Williams was writing in 1909:


The Uses of Poetry


I've fond anticipation of a day
O'erfilled with pure diversion presently,
For I must read a lady poesy
The while we glide by many a leafy bay,

Hid deep in rushes, where at random play
The glossy black winged May-flies, or whence flee
Hush-throated nestlings in alarm,
Whom we have idly frighted with our boat's long sway.

For, lest o'ersaddened by such woes as spring
To rural peace from our meek onward trend,
What else more fit? We'll draw the latch-string

And close the door of sense; then satiate wend,
On poesy's transforming giant wing,
To works afar whose fruits all anguish mend.


Williams, William Carlos. The Early Poems of William Carlos Williams [Annotated] (Kindle Locations 337-347). Perscribo Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 02-08-2017, 04:35 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

POET’S WORK

Grandfather
advised me:
Learn a trade

I learned
to sit at desk
and condense

No layoff
from this
condensery

Lorine Niedecker

N.B. Faraj, will you join me in this thread? What do you think of the Niedecker poem? I have another in a similar vein to post, or link to, by the truly amazing poet, Basil Bunting. But I will wait to see if anyone comes along here first.

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 02-08-2017 at 04:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 02-08-2017, 04:56 PM
John Whitworth's Avatar
John Whitworth John Whitworth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12,945
Default

What makes that a poem, William? Is it because she says it is?

Williams began as a bad poet. So he started writing little pensees instead. That was an improvement. IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 02-08-2017, 04:56 PM
Michael F's Avatar
Michael F Michael F is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: a foothill of the Catskills
Posts: 968
Default

Bill,

The first poem is a strong argument for destroying one's juvenilia, as I think Eliot did (and recommended, at least by example). I don't feel competent to voice an opinion on the whole state of contemporary poetry, but I shall say that the other WC Williams you posted hereabouts is much, much, much better. IMHO.

I'll follow this thread happily. I haven't read WCW in some years, but I almost brought him with me to CA ... I opted for Kipling's short stories instead. Ah, decisions, decisions, as you say!

Last edited by Michael F; 02-08-2017 at 06:29 PM. Reason: getting the quote right
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 02-08-2017, 04:59 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Whitworth View Post
What makes that a poem, William? Is it because she says it is?
Of course, John. You may recall that I've argued for that before.

The important question is not whether it's a poem, since it's certainly a poem. The important question is, "Is it a good poem or a bad poem?"

I think it's a good poem, but not nearly as good as the dreaded Wheelbarrow poem.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 02-08-2017, 05:03 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Keats began as a bad poet also. I might post one that I think is absolutely horrible. But I got in trouble on another board because people thought I was trying to besmirch the memory of Keats. Heaven forbid, as Paul might say. Keats remains one of my favorite poets, if not my favorite. It's so hard to decide on a favorite. But I do love Keats more than any other poet, on a wholly subjective and personal level, whether or not his poems are my favorites.

Don't all poets start out as bad poets, now that I think of it?

And yes, Michael. I destroyed nearly all of my first blights. Someone, the composer what's-his-name (dammit, memory), said, "First operas should be drowned, like kittens."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pascal/pensees.html

Now I get it!

Last edited by William A. Baurle; 02-08-2017 at 05:11 PM. Reason: editing!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 02-08-2017, 05:21 PM
Jayne Osborn's Avatar
Jayne Osborn Jayne Osborn is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Middle England
Posts: 6,950
Default

The Uses of Poetry

I've fond anticipation of a day
O'erfilled with pure diversion presently,
For I must read a lady poesy
The while we glide by many a leafy bay,

Hid deep in rushes, where at random play
The glossy black winged May-flies, or whence flee
Hush-throated nestlings in alarm,
Whom we have idly frighted with our boat's long sway.

For, lest o'ersaddened by such woes as spring
To rural peace from our meek onward trend,
What else more fit? We'll draw the latch-string

And close the door of sense; then satiate wend,
On poesy's transforming giant wing,
To works afar whose fruits all anguish mend.

Heck, WCW can be thankful he's not around to post that poem here for critique. Imagine the response he'd get. It's truly awful

But so is the The Red Wheelbarrow, IMO. (Sorry, Bill!)

Jayne
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 02-08-2017, 05:33 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

No need to be sorry, Jayne!

I value your opinion, but I love that dreaded cantankerous ratz-a-fratzin Wheelbarrow!

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 02-08-2017, 05:50 PM
R. S. Gwynn's Avatar
R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 4,749
Default

Some poets have the knack for rhyme, meter, and tight form. WCW didn't. Pound did, but he quickly learned there was no way to advance past Yeats, though he would have done well enough as a decadent if that style wasn't old hat. So Make It New became his credo; he wanted to be in step with the modern artists in that respect. I like HSM as poetry, but I lose patience after that, just as Pound, I think, lost patience with poems for POETRY. There's a big difference between the two. Williams also tried POETRY in the Paterson books, but he should have stuck to poems instead. Poems are made; POETRY is written. I could go on and will if anyone has questions, but I'm in DC right now and have to limit my screeds. I will add that the silly red wheelbarrow was probably written as an "in your face" to those who had set definitions about what poetry is and isn't (or what a poem is or isn't) and it did work in that respect. The Armory Show of 1912 (?) was a watershed for the American arts in general.

Last edited by R. S. Gwynn; 02-08-2017 at 09:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 02-08-2017, 06:22 PM
William A. Baurle William A. Baurle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,844
Default

Just one question, Sam,

When you say "poems are made", does that agree with what I am saying, and have said before, that

"if a person makes a pile of words and calls it a poem, then it's a poem"?

I said that ^ in an older thread about a poet who had gotten famous for slamming Garrison Keillor's "Good Poems". That poet had been well-known before for his poems, but he became even more famous for dragging a book through the dirt.

I still have to post that Bunting poem, if I can find it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 8,399
Total Threads: 21,841
Total Posts: 270,805
There are 1385 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online