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  #21  
Unread 10-10-2019, 01:20 AM
Quincy Lehr's Avatar
Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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Rogerbobó

Lay off the misguided tu quoque stuff (though congrats on such a deep-cut Facebook post; I mean, I knew you were a fan, but...). It isnít just tedious, but one is hyperbolic invective (based loosely on a Bill Hicks bit for years ago), with Satanís genitalia being dictated by a general portrayal of the character as male (if I have Don Share go downtown on the Whore of Babylon the next time I am amazed at the poverty of content in Poetry, will all be forgiven?); the other is a somewhat inexplicably aggressive post aimed at the British people on this board, who, regardless of politics, didnít actually, you know, vote for Boris Johnson to be PM in the last general election.
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  #22  
Unread 10-10-2019, 03:36 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Julie - Although I do still agree with the essence of what you say, I suppose, to be fair, the expression 'to be someone's bitch', in this context at least, doesn't really suggest a person on the receiving end of a penis in an ordinary consensual relationship, whether heterosexual or homosexual. It's more of a prison joke or trope, connoting the idea that you have been coerced into being someone's regular rape victim. So whether the phrase is actually sexist or homophobic (apart from the word 'bitch' itself) is more complicated. It's undeniably unpleasant, and the weird tone of Aaron's original post still baffles me.

Roger and Quincy - Interesting debate. I understand Quincy's point about tone and intention. I've never really been able to tap into that register of aggressively sexual imagery to express anger or scorn and it never really appealed to me even as an adolescent, though I've known and liked plenty people who are able to. I just can't summon it up. I liked Bill Hicks, but I always found those bits fairly tiresome. I imagine they came from his southern Baptist upbringing, like a profane take on the way preachers would rail against immorality and yet seem slightly too excited about the details. Creative obscenity like yours, Quincy, doesn't necessarily equate to 'taunting machismo', though it's a fine line. Hicks was a strange mix, which was part of his charm and 'fucked up' appeal: macho dark rock star stylings, cigarette, hedonism, fairly unreconstructed sexual politics but he also had a gentleness and railed against dumb machismo and anti-intellectualism and seemed desperately sincere in his quest for universal love. He was like one of the weird kids who were still one of the cool kids. But I was always a little intimidated by those, and sought out the weird kids who were just quietly weird. You remind me of him. You even look a bit like him. I can't be the first to note this.
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  #23  
Unread 10-10-2019, 05:43 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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Quincy. It took about ten seconds to dig up any number of quotes to prove my point. Just search "Quincy Lehr" plus any curse word and a list appears. You don't have to be a fanboy to know that your typical mode of expression on Facebook is to find a target to mock with the bold language of teenage boys who have made sure their parents are not listening. For you to claim that this mode of expression isn't a manifestation of the very machismo you claim to disapprove of is disingenuous.
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  #24  
Unread 10-10-2019, 07:33 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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Mark: "It's undeniably unpleasant, and the weird tone of Aaron's original post still baffles me."

I agree (and it did occur to me at the time) it seemed cavalier to put forth the question as such. It seems to want to goad a brawl. Now one is brewing...

I stay away from the fringes. Itís bedlam out there. I stay centered and look for a rising tide of civility and a wave of common good. It's a hope. Not the kind of hope that is useless, but the larger, karmic kind. I don't know nothing until I do...
x
x
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  #25  
Unread 10-10-2019, 08:47 AM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
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"Seems to want to goad a brawl"?

Indeed. I said as much in post #11.

Just call me "Cassandra" and carry on. I'll get my coat.
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  #26  
Unread 10-10-2019, 09:03 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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X
Here ó let me help you with that, Annie. I was just about to get my own.
X
X
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  #27  
Unread 10-10-2019, 09:11 AM
Quincy Lehr's Avatar
Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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Hereís a song for you, Bob!
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  #28  
Unread 10-10-2019, 07:18 PM
Chris O'Carroll Chris O'Carroll is offline
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The cartoonist's take doesn't make sense to me. Although Johnson's Brexiteering is certainly characterized by dishonesty and bad management, I don't see how it's a sign of subservience to the stable genius across the pond.

In other news, Kurds are being slaughtered today because Trump has made himself Erdogan's bitch.
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  #29  
Unread 10-10-2019, 07:28 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Trump might be doing what Erdogan wants. It wouldn't be the first time - Erdogan threatened to take Trump's name off two Istanbul buildings in 2016 and Trump immediately did his bidding. But it's worth noting that one person very pleased with Turkey's offensive in northern Syria is, once again, Vladimir Putin. One country NOT served by Donald Trump's decision is the good old US of A. Go figure.

Cheers,
John
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  #30  
Unread 10-10-2019, 08:46 PM
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Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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Trump's justification for abandoning the Syrian Kurds to their now-grim fate is that they didn't help us at Normandy. Did any Trumps help us at Normandy, or anywhere else in WW2? Did Trump himself help us in Vietnam? How many deferrals did those bone spurs get him--five, was it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
Julie - Although I do still agree with the essence of what you say, I suppose, to be fair, the expression 'to be someone's bitch', in this context at least, doesn't really suggest a person on the receiving end of a penis in an ordinary consensual relationship, whether heterosexual or homosexual. It's more of a prison joke or trope, connoting the idea that you have been coerced into being someone's regular rape victim. So whether the phrase is actually sexist or homophobic (apart from the word 'bitch' itself) is more complicated.
Yes, sadly I am familiar with the prison rape culture context in which a man decides it would be better to have semi-consensual sex with someone he has semi-chosen, rather than being serially raped with no choice. (Although some prison bitches, like their female counterparts on the outside, get pimped by their so-called protectors, and they have no choice about that.)

My cousin left prison far more messed-up than when he went in as a young and physically unimpressive man. It's not hard to guess why. I fail to see how condoning the cruel and unusual punishment of prison rape culture benefits the society into which prisoners are eventually released, after their supposed "rehabilitation."

And metaphors that chortle in sadistic glee at prison rape culture obviously condone those dehumanizing atrocities.

I still see misogyny and homophobia in the prison bitch metaphor. To me, it strongly implies that a passive role is to be sneered at in either a male or a female, even if that role is enthusiastically consensual.

In fact, in the metaphor, the degree of contempt actually increases with the supposed enthusiasm of the bitch for demonstrating submission. The metaphor suggests that he isn't really being raped, because he loves being dominated by the strongman, doesn't it? So, too, the fellatio variant implies that the more demeaning the situation and the more rancid the ballsack, the more enjoyable the experience for the passive one, and the greater the contempt of the speaker.

The reason for that correlation between consent and contempt is probably to avoid the notion that the "bitch" is being victimized, and is therefore a sympathetic figure. But I still can't help feeling sympathy for the person portrayed as the bitch in this scenario. And I don't necessarily want to feel sympathy for certain people.

Dang, there goes my moral high ground.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 10-10-2019 at 08:49 PM.
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