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  #21  
Unread 09-06-2019, 01:56 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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Thanks. The short version of what I'm saying is that it's weird to say that calling for a referendum is anti-democratic.
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  #22  
Unread 09-06-2019, 02:21 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Just to share my opinion a moment - I'd love to see another referendum. But my UK friends, who mostly feel the same, tend to note their reservations about having one. It's the best gauge I have as to UK opinion on the topic, apart from the joke I posted upthread. My sister has a UK passport and would dearly love to vote again.

Cheers,
John
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  #23  
Unread 09-06-2019, 02:26 PM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Yes, it is distinctly strange when the argument against a second referendum is that asking the people what they think now is deeply undemocratic and undermines "the will of the people", irrespective of what the "will of the people" is now that it's clearer what we're getting ourselves into (and certain campaign promises have evaporated ...). The Greeks, who invented democracy, often re-voted and changed their minds. I also seem to recall Theresa May putting her deal to the vote multiple times in the hopes of getting it through. Johnson is doing the same in his attempt to get a pre-deadline election.

I guess a more reasonable argument against a second referendum would be that, with the country essentially split down the middle, a second referendum is likely to yield another marginal result that is, say, 51.9% in favour of staying (whereas the previous one was 51.9% in favour of leaving), and thereafter calls for a third referendum would arise (or for a "best of three") and so on ...

Looking at opinion polls, although staying in has consistently been more popular than leaving for the past two years, there's still not an awful lot in it, and if the polls are right, likely what you'd get would indeed be a marginal victory for staying in the EU (though there's no guarantee that polls give an accurate prediction in terms of who'd actually come out and vote). Opinion may have shifted a little, but it doesn't look like there's been an overwhelming change of heart, I think.

I'd say positions have become become increasingly polarised and unlikely to change all that much in the face of facts, reasoned argument and statistical likelihoods, all of which can easily be dismissed as lies and fake news (by either side), and often are. Especially given how complicated the whole situation is and how much is unknown. Witness, for example Rees-Mogg's ad hominem dismissal the concerns of a doctor who compiled the government's own report on the impact of a no deal Brexit on the supply of critical drugs and medicines. Mogg's argument was simply that the doctor was a "remoaner" and this was more "Project Fear".

A referendum could help settle what the "will of the people" is on the no deal situation. Currently it can be argued that, since the referendum result was to leave, we should leave at any cost. Conversely, it can be argued that when people voted for leave, they weren't voting for no deal, but to leave with the promised advantageous deal we were told that we'd easily get from EU. Had they specifically been asked about leaving without a deal, they'd have voted differently.

Various polls have consistently shown the British public would prefer to stay in the EU to leaving without a deal, and the margins here are bigger than above, typically staying is around 10 percentage points ahead (often around 45% versus 35%). If this were replicated in a referendum, the argument that leaving without a deal was fulfilling "the will of the people" would be much harder to make.

That said, another (one-off) poll suggest the majority (52% to 38%) want it over and done with by 31st October whether there's a deal or not. So, maybe that's the will of the people too. And yet another (one-off) poll suggest the public are split almost exactly 50:50 on the question of whether it's worth extended negotiations til January 2020 to avoid a no deal. Both polls can't be right.

Last edited by Matt Q; 09-06-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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  #24  
Unread 09-06-2019, 03:00 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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But since it seems 99% certain that there won't be a deal (right?) wouldn't the relevant referendum be whether to move forward with a no-deal Brexit? The deal Brexit, it turns out, is simply not an available choice, so there's no point having a referendum to find out if people want it. That's another good reason to have a second referendum, since the question has changed now. Last time around, people were voting on the deal Brexit, not the no deal Brexit. In a sense, a new referendum wouldn't even be a do-over, since the question has changed.
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  #25  
Unread 09-06-2019, 03:17 PM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Well, the leaving with a deal isn't happening because Parliament couldn't agree on one. May's deal was acceptable to the EU, but too soft for Hard Brexiters in her own party (who are now in control of the party) and too hard for (most of) Labour, who wanted a 'softer' deal.

None of this would prevent a referendum resolving what sort of deal we had, given that the deals on offer were deals that EU would agree to. May's deal being one, and there alternative "softer" deals too.

Personally, I think it would make sense to have a referendum on how we leave before we do. Here is the deal (or deals) that would be acceptable to the EU -- i.e, a viable deal, not a fairy tale one. Do want to want to leave with this deal, or leave without a deal, or stay in the EU. That way the referendum is voting with much fuller information than the original one. Quite a complicated ballot paper, though, I guess.
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