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  #11  
Unread 12-02-2018, 01:05 AM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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An extra degree of pomp and ceremony seems fit and natural to observe whenever a president dies, even some small token paid to one of another party; if only because the president is the symbolic head of the nation, and the seat of grave responsibility for our collective welfare is to be respected. Nothing wrong with that. But this assumes the person entrusted such a solemn oath did not surreptitiously abuse the same and surreptitiously commit ill in the guise of doing good. If the person everywhere represented as one who properly upheld the dignity of the presidency actually did the reverse, then I do not contribute to the deception of worthiness being nationally promulgated by any servile token homage.

In such a case, my conscience overrides, makes null and void whatever obligation might be urged of mere propriety. So what then? Unless at the funeral where it would aggravate the pain of others to no purpose, I do not bite my tongue. Rather, I speak what I understand to be the truth, wherever it falls. And on the internet, forget it. I will not be constrained amid the floods of encomium and pomp undeserved to speak the truth uncensored. Would honest Cato, he who died for his tenacity decrying corrupt Caesar, would he self-censor upon the death of the man? Nah, he would not cease to expose the truth behind the eulogised myth.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 12-02-2018 at 03:39 AM.
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  #12  
Unread 12-02-2018, 08:30 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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I don't rejoice in his death, Julie, but even if I thought he was a great man I wouldn't feel tremendous grief over the death at age 94 of a man whose enviably long life was filled with high points and achievements both personal and professional. What more can a person expect out of a lifetime than what he had?
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  #13  
Unread 12-02-2018, 08:57 AM
Aaron Novick Aaron Novick is offline
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Julie, your assumptions that people in this thread are motivated by "pure spite" or are "apparently expecting applause" are pure presumption, based on no evidence whatsoever. Apparently, the idea that people could be posting out of genuine empathy or personal hurt is not even worth considering, for you. The "grave-pissers" must either be sanctimonious or hateful.

It is true that one person in this thread—but only one—has celebrated Bush Sr.'s death. If you can't understand why, it's you who are devoid of empathy.
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  #14  
Unread 12-02-2018, 09:46 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is online now
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Aaron: "[Julie] If you can't understand why, it's you who are devoid of empathy."

I empathize with Julie. I can empathize as well with those who feel otherwise. But not with closed-minded people who are intolerant of differences and unwilling to empathize themselves.
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  #15  
Unread 12-02-2018, 10:28 AM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Steiner View Post
I've always found the song "Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead" from The Wizard of Oz disturbingly macabre and callous. When I hear people whistling something that sounds like that tune, and apparently expecting applause for it, I tell them they won't get any from me. I find it interesting that propriety seems to have no problem with that song, in the context of the movie--perhaps because the deceased had no family or friends to grieve her loss. But I think it violates goodness to rejoice over the death of anyone.
Hi Julie,

The people who sang that song had been released from life-long fear and oppression. They had every right to sing it.

Meanwhile, for my part, I am not rejoicing in GHWB's death, but I reject the false notion that "propriety" requires a moratorium on the moral critique of an especially public figure whose decisions, as you said, "affected billions of lives worldwide." Indeed, his decisions directly caused, contributed to, or exacerbated the suffering of many of those people -- far more than those who were helped by his decisions.

Chris wrote: "On the other hand, speaking ill of the dead feels like a moral imperative when public discourse is overwhelmed by shallow conventional pieties born of willful moral blindness." That is not "grave-pissing" (and I am not sure you are saying it is), it is in fact a call for the the "honest appraisal" you seem to think is not possible "these days." It is possible, but it may not be pretty-sounding. The Munchkins appraisal of the Wicked Witch was, in fact, honest. GHWB was not the Wicked Witch, perhaps, but he was well past the center mark on the continuum from the Good Witch to the Wicked, and an "honest appraisal," if truly honest, would not be a clamor for some redeeming balance.

Also, the notion that propriety entails deference to surviving mourners should indeed be weighed against deference to surviving sufferers. The outpouring of "shallow conventional pieties" is harmful to the to the latter at least as much (if not more so) than honest criticisms are to the mourners. Also, if the mourners were cool with the deceased's bad acts when alive, pointing them out now shouldn't faze them.

David R.

Last edited by David Rosenthal; 12-02-2018 at 10:36 AM.
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  #16  
Unread 12-02-2018, 10:35 AM
Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is offline
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Unless one of your first memories is of watching your uncle on his deathbed looking like a skeleton before he was a skeleton, then your words are just words. There is a reason ACT UP protested by throwing the ashes of AIDS victims on the White House lawn.

He was a terrible person who lived too long. One of the advantages of the sea change currently happening in this country--as we watch marginalized groups gain power--is that we no longer have to be nice to people who don't deserve it.
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  #17  
Unread 12-02-2018, 11:37 AM
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Quincy Lehr Quincy Lehr is offline
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He was a racist, plutocratic war criminal. That this is unexceptional in the upper echelons of American government should not excuse Bush. It should serve as a damning indictment of the United States.
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  #18  
Unread 12-02-2018, 11:48 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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His flaws and sins were monumental, only to appear minimal to some in the Age of Trump. But the ADA was a wonderful achievement. I'm not suggesting it outbalances the bad, but it helped and continues to help countless people in non-trivial ways and we are all better for it.
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  #19  
Unread 12-02-2018, 12:47 PM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Slater View Post
His flaws and sins were monumental, only to appear minimal to some in the Age of Trump. But the ADA was a wonderful achievement. I'm not suggesting it outbalances the bad, but it helped and continues to help countless people in non-trivial ways and we are all better for it.
I think though, that the ADA was a victory more attributable to the activists who had pushed for it for years, pushed the EEOC, pushed for the NCD to happen and then pushed the NCD, and finally pushed the Congress to pass it, than to Bush. Plus, Congress may have the votes to override a veto anyway. Also, Mondale would have signed it. So I'm not si sure how much credit to give Bush for it. A minimal amount, I think.

David R.
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  #20  
Unread 12-02-2018, 01:00 PM
David Rosenthal David Rosenthal is offline
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More on ADA: It is also worth noting that GHWB’s actions, decisions, and policies harmed disabled people, impaired their acces to care, and literally caused many people’s disabilities.
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