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  #21  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:41 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Hey Mary. I agree there's an undercurrent of self-pity here, and a kind of 'yaay for diversity' through gritted teeth haha. But that's what makes it interesting to me. It's human. He could have written in the way you suggest, but it wouldn't have been genuine. I'd much rather read someone's sincere thoughts, even if conflicted and self-pitying, than someone writing from a script they feel obliged to follow.

Thanks for the info, Andrew.
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  #22  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:45 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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I mostly fault his economics.

Cheers,
John
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  #23  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:52 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Yeah, Andrew, thanks for posting and I think it makes for an interesting discussion. That said, I don't necessarily think it's the best thing for an artist to dwell on. You could lose readership for any number of reasons and, sure, perhaps this is one of them. You know, outside of this, tastes change, what's in, what's not, etc. I like Hicok and, imo, he'll survive. You just do what you do and do it the best you can. Evolving can lose a fan base too, but if that's where you feel you need to go, so be it. I think our heads need to be out of the market, at least for substantial periods of time. For me, when it's trying to publish time, I find it exceedingly hard to write. My head is just in the wrong place. I know a lot of poets just do that constantly, but I really need those two worlds to be separated. But maybe that's just me.
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  #24  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:56 AM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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James,

I think this is particularly true:

"I think our heads need to be out of the market, at least for substantial periods of time."

I think, also, that you can't be thinking about whether you'll "survive" (which I think is at least implied in your quote, I'm just making it implicit).

Just write poetry you like, work on making it better, and then repeat. It's a gift to write poetry, and it's something no one can take away from you and a reward in itself. The fame, money, awards? They're fads and you have no control.
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  #25  
Unread 08-02-2019, 09:51 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Neil Young once got sued by his record company for making an album that didn’t sound like Neil Young.

Cheers,
John
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  #26  
Unread 08-02-2019, 11:23 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Well, speaking as someone with vast reserves of self-pity, haha, I'll have a little personal ramble. We're all human and flawed and desirous, probably even when we have 10 books to our name. I only started writing poems about six years ago, and now I think about them constantly, which is equal parts pleasure and pain. When I first got one published I thought the ache for affirmation, for this to become my identity (that's the word!) would go. But of course it didn't. I'd be lying if I said I don't sometimes fantasise about recognition, about being known as a writer rather than a high-school teacher with a weird hobby that makes him late with his marking. I think the continuing diversification of the poetry scene, and the correcting of historical imbalance, is nothing but a good thing. I also know I've probably kind of missed the boat in terms of ever really being part of that scene. That if ever I did publish a book, then 'first collection by middle-aged, straight, married, white father of three' isn't going to pique much interest. Working-class and ex Catholic is as exciting as I've got. My 'kind' — who I'm stuck with, didn't ask for, and don't feel much connection to — have probably had their shot, even if 'me' personally has barely started. But that's OK. That's just life innit, and all for the best. Or perhaps it's a myth that the 'straight white guy' doesn't have anything that anyone wants to hear. I can believe this too. I don't know or care much, and I'm too busy to feel like I'll ever really be 'po-biz' savvy anyway. So I try to just not worry about it and focus on the richer pleasures of finishing a poem. It's the best thrill since my twins were born.
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  #27  
Unread 08-02-2019, 11:36 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Well, I might draw the line at survival, Andrew. Everyone would like some recognition for what they've devoted their lives to. It's nice to be recognized. But that shouldn't be what drives you, I think. Being ambitious about what you're doing with your work is a world away from being ambitious about fame or, ha, money. But just even getting recognized some I need to separate from the work. Anyway, I wanted to say more about the specifics of the essay, and maybe will return for that. Cheers.

John, somehow, in my book, Neil Young is still underrated (he was sued for that??)
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  #28  
Unread 08-02-2019, 12:03 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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Neil Young is the man who wrote “Blue blue windows behind the sky” and “What do you mean he had bullet holes in his mirror?”
He has a gift.

Cheers,
John
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  #29  
Unread 08-02-2019, 12:11 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
I also know I've probably kind of missed the boat in terms of ever really being part of that scene. That if ever I did publish a book, then 'first collection by middle-aged, straight, married, white father of three' isn't going to pique much interest.
Mark, are you taking the piss? or do you really think your book would not pique much interest because you are a white man and middle-aged? I dare say I do not think you have to worry about that my friend. What matters is the quality of the poetry and you will not be discriminated against for those traits. Truth be told, there are still white men being published and promoted and read of all ages, which is obvious. There is no too old for any of the above nor race. Any demographic under the sun can get a book published and promoted provided one thing: that their submitted manuscript is publishable. Manuscripts, not being a man, is what clinches it. In short, I wholly agree with you on the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
Or perhaps it's a myth that the 'straight white guy' doesn't have anything that anyone wants to hear.
Only minus the perhaps. And there’s an end on’t.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 08-02-2019 at 01:38 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 08-02-2019, 12:12 PM
Andrew Szilvasy Andrew Szilvasy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
My 'kind', who I'm stuck with, have probably had their shot, even if 'me' personally has barely started. But that's OK. That's just life innit, and all for the best. Or perhaps it's a myth that the 'straight white guy' doesn't have anything that anyone wants to hear.
Straight white men our age still ultimately dominate the scene. That's partially what makes the self-pity so absurd.

When you publish a book, I'll buy the hell out of it. Others will too. Will it be a best-seller? Who the hell knows, but it's poetry, so probably not. But fame and sales are only loosely tied to quality. Much as I like money and much as it might be cool to be invited places to talk about poetry, I'd rather be me, you, or nearly anyone on this board, say, than Rupi Kaur.

That said, you might not want to buy into the language of "replacement" you're perhaps tongue-and-cheek playing with here.

Last edited by Andrew Szilvasy; 08-02-2019 at 12:15 PM.
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