Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 06-21-2014, 01:43 AM
Ann Drysdale's Avatar
Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Old South Wales (UK)
Posts: 4,539
Default Copyright question...

Some years ago, I bought an original watercolour from an art student. I have in mind to use it as a book cover. May I? Can I? Is is "mine" to use in that way?

Of course, I would contact the artist as a courtesy and hope she'd be pleased. But could she say No? Of course, I'd respect her wishes if she did, but - whose is it, rightswise?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 06-21-2014, 09:23 AM
W.F. Lantry's Avatar
W.F. Lantry W.F. Lantry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Posts: 4,067
Default

Ann,

That's a really good question. The more I think about it, the more complicated it gets. So maybe it's best to simplify: museums get to say no, even if the artist says yes. So legal physical ownership of the material object seems to trump everything. I've always been shocked that if one owns a famous painting, one can throw it on the bonfire, sans consequence.

On the other hand, you're right, ethical considerations trump legalities here. It's not as if you're depriving the artist of potential future revenue. But she does have an ethical right to be consulted about the use of her image. Some artists might object to having their image associated with erotica or religion.

Still, such an objection, in a case like this, is extremely unlikely. So back to the heart of your question: could she say no? Yes. Could she legally enforce that no? She could try, but she'd lose, and the cost to her would be prohibitive. This isn't popular music or film, where most of these cases occur, this is poetry and art, and there just isn't much money in either. Most likely scenario: she'll be flattered and happy. Maybe she'll even add a line to her vitae.

Best,

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 06-21-2014, 09:42 AM
Jerome Betts Jerome Betts is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Devon England
Posts: 1,610
Default

I've run across this when seeking permission to use images to illustrate articles, Ann. As far as I remember the 70 year rule applies, i.e. in the UK copyright remains with the artist's heirs or whoever acquired the rights until 70 years after the artist's death. The copyright may have passed to a publishing company, as I found on one occasion, when asking permission to use book illustrations 68 years after the artist's death despite my owning a copy of the book. Copyright can be sold, of course, but it doesn't sound as if there was a specific agreement about this with the art student. In practice, as WFL says, I would imagine a proper credit and the chance to have work on display to the book-buying public would be more than enough compensation if she still owns the copyright.

Last edited by Jerome Betts; 06-21-2014 at 09:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 06-21-2014, 10:47 AM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 14,293
Default

There's nothing complicated at all about this, Ann. You do not own the copyright to the painting unless the artist transferred it to you (in the bill of sale, for example). Legal physical ownership does not trump anything. Sorry, Bill.

This rule seems to apply in the UK, as clearly stated here.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 06-21-2014, 02:48 PM
W.F. Lantry's Avatar
W.F. Lantry W.F. Lantry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Posts: 4,067
Default

Interesting. Roger is entirely correct. So I could legally burn the object, but couldn't legally sell images of it burning?

https://www.writersandartists.co.uk/...aw-for-artists

There's an interesting distinction here, though:

"Galleries and publishers are generally entitled to reproduce an artist’s work in order to help sell it – through advertisements, catalogues, JPEGs for emailing to clients and uploading onto their website – but they are not entitled to profit from reproductions of a work."

Which goes back to the money question: What if nobody's making money on the project?

Anyway, thanks to Roger, today I learned this: "A painting and the copyright in that painting are two entirely separate commercial entities."

Thanks,

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 06-21-2014, 03:24 PM
Ann Drysdale's Avatar
Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Old South Wales (UK)
Posts: 4,539
Default

Strange to think that I can buy an original painting and be the only person to have it because there is only one of it and not have the "right" to do anything with it other than own it, when my owning it makes it impossible for anyone else to do anything with it...

But thanks, Roger. Does that mean that (technically) I have to get a licence and pay for the use of it, as I have always done with images I didn't own? Over and above what I paid for the picture in the first place? I suppose it does, and I suppose the artist might ask for more than I can afford; she has quite a reputation now. We shall see.

I couldn't possibly ask her to "give" me the right to use the image now that I know she has the right to put her own price on it. That would feel like begging. I am a bit embarrassed at having assumed that I might own it already.

In practice it may all work out as Bill and Jerome suggest, but I am so glad I asked.

Thank you all.

(And extra thanks to Bill, for the post (above) that I hadn't seen when I submitted mine and went to bed...)

Last edited by Ann Drysdale; 06-22-2014 at 02:21 AM. Reason: I woke to find that I had cross-posted with Bill.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 06-22-2014, 01:46 AM
Ann Drysdale's Avatar
Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Old South Wales (UK)
Posts: 4,539
Default

Having slept on it, I see that I have been stupidly naive again. I knew that I owed a courtesy and was happy to pay it, it was just that the thought of further financial consideration took me by surprise. I am, I suppose, a bit ill-at-ease with money, having so little acquaintance with it.

Of course it is right and proper that artists should have the means of making a living from the beauty they produce, the pleasure they give. I have already written a sonnet inspired, in part, by this particular picture. I'm smiling as I recall that I entered it in this year's bake-off and had to withdraw it when I found it on Google. Heigh-ho.

If the matter arises, I shall do the right thing; my conscience and the law are dancing on the head of the same pin. I wonder, though, if the artist (or their agent) gives permission to someone else to use the image, would I as the owner of the "actual" piece need to be consulted? or credited? Probably not. Perhaps it has already appeared all over the place. Would I even know?

And I wonder about their still having it to sell even after parting with the original. I bet that didn't happen in days before photography and digital images.

It's all academic, anyway. I own this painting, even if I don't own the picture, and I love it dearly. It is above my desk as I type. There is a cobweb on the corner of it, quivering in the draught from the computer.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 06-24-2014, 07:36 AM
Sharon Passmore Sharon Passmore is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 2,358
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Drysdale View Post
Strange to think that I can buy an original painting and be the only person to have it because there is only one of it and not have the "right" to do anything with it other than own it, when my owning it makes it impossible for anyone else to do anything with it...
Think about it like this...I buy a book of Ann Drysdale poetry. I own this book. I own these poems...or do I? Can I now go out and use the poems on greeting cards? If the artist took a picture of her painting, she does have the right to use it.

It's not always about money. It can be about being able to say no when someone wants to use the art on something they don't want to endorse.

It's not necessary to make a big deal about it. Just contact her and ask - "May I use your art on my book?"
If I were the artist I would be thrilled but I might ask for a few copies and the right to use photos of the book in my own promotions. She may want to be credited or have some say-so about how it's cropped. BUT if it's not complicated enough, the photographers have some copyrights too.
__________________
Sharon
https://www.artmajeur.com/en/member/sharon-passmore
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 06-24-2014, 04:05 PM
Cyn Neely's Avatar
Cyn Neely Cyn Neely is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cascade Mountains, WA State
Posts: 1,544
Default

since you did not make the painting it is not your work even though you possess the physical painting. You need to get permission for its use on a cover or in any other print media (maybe even online media) and of course to give credit where credit is due - speaking as both a poet and a painter
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 06-25-2014, 08:55 AM
Wintaka's Avatar
Wintaka Wintaka is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 427
Default Do we say that painters and sculptors "publish" their works?

There's a simple workaround: take your painting to a public place and snap a photo of it.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-o...-exception.htm

"Also, it is not an infringement of the copyright in a work if you draw, take a photograph or make a film of, buildings or sculptures or works of artistic craftsmanship which are located in a public places or in premises open to the public and copyright is not infringed in any material when it is used in legal proceedings."

Personally, I think there should be a distinction between unique works (e.g. paintings and sculptures) as opposed to duplicated ones (e.g. prototypes, books, movies, prints, mass produced figurines, etc.) but, as others have pointed out, there doesn't seem to be.

-o-
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 7,959
Total Threads: 19,415
Total Posts: 248,610
There are 151 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online