[Allen Tice]

Julie and W T,
I too hope this thread is not a crap thread. If I've gotten too touchy, I apologize.

Julie's analysis is very good. Let's imagine that I found a marvelous poem by someone else and want to call attention to it gently with a spotlight reference, yet am concerned that mentioning the other author might not work too well in my effort. How to reassure the other author that no malice is involved, nor is there any attempt to steal that person's thunder, but rather to praise it? My answer would be to carry the image a bit farther. I could even plead guilty to homage, but not stealing.

It's a tricky area perhaps. Maybe that's all I need to say.

[Allen Tice]

I will accept that Jack’s post was an example of homage, however seemingly off track to me, and modify my recent posts. It takes all kinds to make a world.

[Jim Moonan]

.
(I hope I'm reading this thread correctly.)
The line is indeed a fuzzy one. When artistic expression is involved (as opposed to a patent for example) it takes a fine-toothed comb to separate out the black from the white, the what from the who, what is homage from what is infringement, etc.

I believe Dylan has acknowledged he has lifted pieces of melodies and phrases from others without giving attribution. John Lennon was sued for lifting "Come Together" from the Chuck Berry song, "You Can't Catch Me". They settled out of court. Even Led Zeppelin's hallowed "Stairway to Heaven" has been contested as being lifted from somebody somewhere. Same as it ever was said somebody somewhere (David Byrne, actually). Heathcote Williams wrote a play AC/DC in which there is a soliloquy given on the subject of the slippery slope of plagiarism.

.

[Allen Tice]

Thanks Jim,
Maybe a useful parallel might be the momentary visual echo by others in their films of what is truly an iconic visual image from Ingmar Bergman’s film “The Seventh Seal” where at the end a personified death figure leads a train of individuals along the horizon on a hill. I’ve seen homages to that at least two or three times. The original is stark, unforgettable.

[Sarah-Jane Crowson]

Let's imagine that I found a marvelous poem by someone else and want to call attention to it gently with a spotlight reference, yet am concerned that mentioning the other author might not work too well in my effort. How to reassure the other author that no malice is involved, nor is there any attempt to steal that person's thunder, but rather to praise it?

Again, being the voice of pragmatism, if they're alive, ask them? And if they aren't available to ask, ask their agent or publisher. And if they're dead, ask their estate. Agents, publishers are (generally) humans, too. My advice based on lived experience would be to make sure you are very direct and straightforward in your request, rather than overtly flowerly or opaque in your language - be specific about how and why you're using the author in question.

Sarah-Jane

[Allen Tice]

S-J,
Very good.

Just for fun, can you or anyone else imagine a situation where on this type of topic something that works in practice doesn’t work in theory?

Artists are sometimes super competitive. The actual dialectic of what you suggest, reasonably in fact, assumes a lot about, well, artists, who are, as we know, if they are any good, exquisitely intense people. I’m sorry because I don’t have good modern examples and have to go classical here: when the Roman poet Ovid “flirted” with the older Roman poet Horace, it would have been indelicate and disastrous to have named names. Frenemy
is a term that would have applied there I think.

Yet all that isn’t quite what this thread is about, which is, how best to use good stuff that deserves thoughtful although quiet lauding. Not parody, praise.

[RCL]

Allen,

Your last statement defines a pastiche verse, such as this turkey for the holiday:

After Robert Burns: A Red, Red Rose


A Red, Red Snood

My turkey has a red, red snood
And when he runs it wobbles.
My turkey’s snood detects what food
Causes garbled gobbles.

So soft and plump are you my fowl,
So heavy you can’t fly,
But plucked, without your cowl,
You’ll brown as you deep-fry.

And when you’re bronzed by the deep-fry,
You’ll be our honored guest,
And all the kids will sing and sigh
And praise you as the best!

I’ll bet that after all this trouble,
In heaven for fowl foods,
You’ll grin and gobble as we gobble
All but red, red snoods.

[Allen Tice]

Well, my love is like a rose that newly glows in June, April, May, and all months with or without the letter R. You didn’t spare the horses to speed your poem in time for Thanksgiving. It’s timely and cute, careening close to gentle parody. I’m struggling to find a workable example of what I mean among living Eratosphere people without scraping the curb. Maybe Ann Drysdale, who writes so well, has done something one of us could echo with an air kiss. A houseboat image in another person’s poem; I wouldn’t dare try that yet because I’m unwilling to act like I’m up to her level. That’s the idea though.

[Julie Steiner]

Originally Posted by Allen Tice

Just for fun, can you or anyone else imagine a situation where on this type of topic something that works in practice doesn’t work in theory?

Personally, I don't think structuring this poem in a way that is so patently derivative from this poem does the impact any favors whatsoever. Others may disagree, and may feel that the nod to another poem makes the shocking content of the newer poem more tolerable. I think it would have been more effective being taken on its own terms, though.

[Allen Tice]

Wow, Julie, wow. A painful first poem.