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  #61  
Unread 02-11-2019, 03:44 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Hahahaha, Christ, John. It is also how one handles the pan. Pans don't kill food. People kill food.

I'm not opposed to identifying as a group~ there's real empowerment there. It's a political necessity sometimes. But it doesn't mean that expressing that identity is what makes it art. There seems to be a bewildering, to my mind, confusion in that regard. We (us lefties who also fancy ourselves artists) must be held to a higher standard. Write an opinion piece, protest, write a speech if you want. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, of course, but, imo, when the individual voice is lost, the poet is fatally compromised.
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  #62  
Unread 02-12-2019, 03:04 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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Posted as new thread for more discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th92...yagTm2F2zI4ugY
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  #63  
Unread 02-12-2019, 05:36 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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One experience cannot be assumed for a group entire; since any group will compass as many experiences as individuals.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 02-12-2019 at 06:02 PM.
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  #64  
Unread 02-14-2019, 11:27 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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Julie Steiner said: "Certain strands of Western thought distinguish between contrasting things in terms of polar opposition--good vs. evil--while certain strands of Eastern thought tend to see contrasting things in terms of balance: Everything yang has some yin in it, and vice versa, and the purity of an extreme is to be avoided, not sought."

With all due respect to Julie, I think a lot of us tend to generalize about ("certain strands of") Western vs. Eastern thought and perhaps valorize the latter. I wonder if there's really that much difference historically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_death_toll
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  #65  
Unread 02-15-2019, 07:43 AM
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Michael F Michael F is offline
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It’s the magic of ‘and’, isn’t it? Not ‘either/or’, but ‘both/and’.

Yes, I belong to XYZ groups, and I am uncategoried, unique and irreducible, maybe undefinable. And that’s a characteristic I share (O paradox!) with every other human being on Earth.

To your point, Sam: as I read e.g., The Upanishads and the Tao Te Ching, I understand a denial that the logic of binary opposites cuts to the 'really real'. Yes, there are some Western thinkers and poets who also have this feel to me. Just keeping to poets: Rilke, Blake (in part), and of course Walt, whose “Song of Myself” is full of vanishing distinctions.

Showing the best and dividing it from the worst age vexes age,
Knowing the perfect fitness and equanimity of things, while they
discuss I am silent, and go bathe and admire myself.

Last edited by Michael F; 02-15-2019 at 10:00 AM. Reason: less pedantic, or at least trying
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  #66  
Unread 02-15-2019, 12:51 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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Yeah, Julie, "certain strands" kinda qualifies that into oblivion. I'm not sure wars prove a difference in thinking, only that we're all guilty. I would agree that believing the West, or America, is at the root of all evil is its own kind of arrogance.

* I would like to add, that after meeting an American from upstate NY (it would have to be upstate), a person who had the temerity to debate the wall with me, I realized that I may be arguing less than essential points. He went on about "white" statistics, whites addicted to drugs, whites in prison (which I believe are still the minority).We have a real problem here. Even in Taipei, they are misinformed and militant.

Last edited by James Brancheau; 02-15-2019 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  #67  
Unread 02-15-2019, 08:14 PM
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R. S. Gwynn R. S. Gwynn is offline
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Michael F, old Walt builds his arguments out of anitheses. So did Blake, who had four of them.
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  #68  
Unread 02-16-2019, 01:45 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
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The point I was trying to make was "Must every set of contrasting identities be treated as if one is good and the other is bad?"

If people thought my point was "East good, West bad," that's a very discouraging answer to my question.

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 02-16-2019 at 01:47 AM.
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  #69  
Unread 02-16-2019, 05:02 AM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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That is discouraging! But it's also kind of funny.

John
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  #70  
Unread 02-16-2019, 06:19 AM
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Michael F Michael F is offline
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Sam,

There is something redolent of Hegel in the air, but I’d submit that rather than resolving in a new thesis of the intellect, Walt’s resolution, like the Upanishads, is a movement of the emotions, with something of intuition. I think there is an intellectual reason to it, but it’s not explicitly argued; rather, he describes it lyrically, goes roundabout, and circles back to it innumerably, like a bee buzzing around the garden flowers. Not to be coy, but some things shouldn’t be said propositionally lest they lose all art.

Julie, I understood your point. Walt makes the same point, strongly, IMO.

But we digress. It might be fun at some point to have a thread on Whitman. Each time I read him I love him more and am more thunderstruck. Incomparable things said incomparably well…

Last edited by Michael F; 02-23-2019 at 06:11 AM. Reason: style
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