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  #11  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:16 PM
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Daniel Kemper Daniel Kemper is offline
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It's a poem about people who, with varying degrees of willfulness, miss the point.
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  #12  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:35 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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It didn't take much willfulness at all for me to miss it.
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2017, 06:10 AM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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The title is unfortunate. It ties the "learned" of the poems conceit to the Jews in a way that many find historically unlikely, and more importantly, echoes of the Christ killer myth that seems right now to be making a come back in the recent increased breeding of the Master Race. A poem like this needs to be more aware of the history and scaffolding of antisemitism as well as the political currents it might feed in its own moment. As a whole the poem seems comfortable making its own details up for the sake of the trope, which I like, but isn't up to contesting the disasterous mischief that the Gospel writers seeded when they tightened up their story at the expense of the Jews as whole, many decades after the events. No assumption here regarding your own intentions, Daniel. But that is how it reads here.
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:05 PM
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Andrew, I spent some time meditating on your post. I read this line and felt to pray on it. The most important thing for me to address right now is the possible misuse of this by Jew-haters. Bad people seek to use good things for bad purposes.

Let me re-appropriate an expression originally used by Marie Louise Van Franz to describe a certain take on demons. Let the Jew haters express their misunderstood praise for this piece if they will. Stopping the mouths of such people is nearly as impossible as killing demons. Ms. Van Franz said, "You cannot kill demons" (it's an old tradition), "All you can do is educate them."

If such arise, rest assured I'll correct them vigorously.

Me personally, I am a strong Judeophile. (Though I've seen the term twisted-- e.g. the hateful Nietzsche claimed to a certain version of it.) I've no greater animosity toward the Pharisees than say, the Sadducees did, or vice/versa. PM you with more detail on where I'm coming from.

(I could title the poem differently, I suppose. Perhaps the "Sanhedrin on Saturday" might be better. Perhaps some change to "learned ones" would help too.)


There's much to be said on the history and I'm happy to take it up via a post in a different forum or via PM here. Just let me know. I think I'm likely to agree with your history of anti-Semitism, but not your history of the Gospels or of the crucifixion itself. A public venue is as warranted as a private one, just not this thread.
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:43 AM
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By the linking the learned and the "they" of the poem to the pharisees, you tie the action of the poem exclusively to the Jews. You even transfer Pilate's Ecce Homo to this "they". I have seen the yogic moves to support the gospel narratives as inerrant history. They are tricky poses but not sustainable, IMO. The role this early politicization of the tale played in mass murder later isn't a take to be agreed on in respect to the Jews, it is an obvious reality. I never doubted your own personal humanity in that regard. I don't suggest the poem is in danger of being lifted up as a standard for the practising demons. I suggest that the needs of seeing the gospels as inerrant history, coupled with the popular reading if John's Revelation as future telling rather than the encrypted description of the Roman Empire (Ellul), are a violence to that history that help perpetuate the mindset that allows the Evangelical Church to support a hateful thug like Trump and lust for a blood bath in Palestine/Israel. Here and now. And this week sixty thousand fascists marched in the streets of Poland. And I just think the version of the trials in the tales are unlikely. Just clarifying my feelings as I read the poem.

But I like Nietzsche. So...

I have strong feelings on the subject. I don't suggest you adopt them. I just give the type of feedback I have to offer. Lots of workshops seem to exempt content from critique, to some extent. I don't have that. It is what I get most from most poetry.

Last edited by Andrew Mandelbaum; 11-13-2017 at 08:00 AM.
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  #16  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:18 AM
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It's well-executed, though I don't find enough there to entice to enter into its perspective, which is completely foreign to mine. That's fine—it just means that the poem has a limited audience.

Aaron P. is completely right about "span"—the craft flags there.
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:55 AM
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http://dojinroku.blogspot.com/2010/0...is-finger.html
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  #18  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:52 AM
Allen Tice Allen Tice is offline
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Ick. Do I believe this Zen story? Hardly the golden rule in any of its forms. Sorry to be very negative.
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  #19  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:57 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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It's a Zen koan. It's made up, Allen.

I don't see its relevance to this poem though, Daniel. The only similarity is use of a finger.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2017, 12:00 AM
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I am comfortable with koans like the about one hand clapping. I am so comfortable with that one that on demand I can even produce the sound of one hand clapping by snapping my fingers (either hand will do). But that gimmick undermines what I analytically think (are Zen people allowed to analyze?) might be a gloss of the underlying overarching philosophy of Zen. This finger koan is not of a piece with that stuff. What "enlightenment" is this supposed to provide? There must be a better kind of koan.
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