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  #1  
Unread 05-16-2019, 06:10 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
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Default Oor Archie

Revision
For those confused by ‘Oor’ Archie, I had vacillated between being dialectical or not and decided on the latter.

Our Archie,

Oh God save Archie Harrison
For him no title Ma’am allow,
Of rank, oh Lord let there be none-
It’s plain Mountbatten-Windsor now.

Please Lord let there be no regrets
The royal blood is now diffused,
That he’s not listed in Debretts
Because a peerage was refused

As Mister Archie Harrison
He’s squarely placed among the masses,
But sending him to Gordanston
Will root him in the upper classes.

Our Archie just a mere esq.,?
A lowly pleb, carousing, drinking
And in ill fitting, cheap attire?
No jolly way! That’s not the thinking.

A commoner, he will not reign
Nor have Nobless Oblige exposure,
At Ascot though he’ll drink champagne
With hoo-hahs in the Royal enclosure.

Oh Archie, scion of Prince Harry,
Is forfeiting a Royalship,
But will retain a customary
Rictus in the upper lip.

Yes Archie keep up a resistance
And a royal mien deploy
To maintain a proper distance
From the Press and hoi polloi .

But do remember when you’ve grown,
Your distaff side had been content
To sacrifice a British throne,
So you could run for President

Young Archie, Harry’s son, we say
The situation could be worse-
At least sans title you won’t stay
A burden on the public purse.





Our Archie

Oh God, save Archie Harrison,
On him no title Ma’am bestow,
Of rank, oh Lord, let there be none-
It’s plain Mountbatten-Windsor, so.

Please Lord, let there be no regrets
His blood is blue somewhat diluted,
That he’s not listed in Debretts
Because a peerage was refuted.

“Archie Harrison the 1st”
Appealingly placates the masses,
But Eton, Cambridge and Sandhurst
Root him in the upper classes.

Our Archie, just a mere esq.,?
A lowly pleb, carousing, drinking,
And in ill-fitting cheap attire?
No jolly. way! That’s not our thinking.

A commoner, he will not reign
Nor have Noblesse Oblige imposed,
At Ascot though, he’ll drink champagne,
Wherein but Royals are enclosed.

Oh Archie, scion of Prince Harry,
You’re forfeiting a Royalship,
But will retain a customary
Rictus in the upper lip.

Yes, Archie, keep up a resistance,
And your royal mien deploy,
To maintain a proper distance
From the Press and hoi polloi.

But do remember when you’ve grown,
Your distaff side had been content,
To sacrifice a British throne,
So you could run for President.

Young Archie, Harry’s son, dear boy,
You’ll never be the common man,
The truth is that you can’t untie
The apron strings of your Great-gran.

Jim

Last edited by Jim Hayes; 05-17-2019 at 08:24 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 05-16-2019, 08:10 AM
Orwn Acra's Avatar
Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is online now
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I would get rid of lines 1 to 36. You misspelled Debrett's, none of the rhymes pop, you couldn't bother with two rhymes in the last stanza, the poem sounds like it was written 200 years ago (but then, newness and change don't seem your forte), there's not a whit of wit, and it's so forgettable I've never had to scroll up and down on my computer so many times to remind myself of what you had written while typing this comment in the box. Cheers!

Last edited by Orwn Acra; 05-16-2019 at 08:52 AM. Reason: 36
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  #3  
Unread 05-16-2019, 08:43 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
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Thanks Oryn, typo changed, interesting to note your inability to count is concomitant with your inability to concentrate.
At any rate, as this is the Deep End, where constructive critique is encouraged,
have you anything to offer that might be of value by way of improvement or are you content with a hatchet job, which after all, is hardly in the spirit we would all like to promote and which I could benefit from?

Thanks again
Jim

Last edited by Jim Hayes; 05-16-2019 at 09:31 AM.
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Unread 05-16-2019, 08:54 AM
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Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is online now
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Please. You were asking for it like a gimp at Folsom Street Fair.

Last edited by Orwn Acra; 05-16-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 05-16-2019, 09:08 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
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I realize its best to ignore you, but, what exactly, in your mind, was I asking for?
Almost without exception, in my long experience here, poets have critiqued their fellow poets with integrity and honesty of purpose - whatever differences might lie between them.

But, ostensibly, you have an agenda.
You should park it sir. Its out of place.

Jim
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  #6  
Unread 05-16-2019, 09:19 AM
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Orwn Acra Orwn Acra is online now
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You start a thread complaining about a "remedial, anodized, cosseting critique safe from the visceral dissemination of an EfH" but have offered nothing yourself the past, I don't know, 10 years, serve up a bunch of limp two-line critiques of other poems, and then post your own but complain about a hatchet job. Bye!
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Unread 05-16-2019, 10:32 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
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No, no, I m not complaining at all, considering the source your comments greatly align with my expectations.
However, since by your own admission they are prompted more my DE thread than the work submitted herein, they are inherently valueless and can be dismissed.

A pity that, but do know that I am greatly appreciative of the attention
Bye yerself,
Respectfully,
Jim
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  #8  
Unread 05-16-2019, 11:17 AM
E. Shaun Russell E. Shaun Russell is offline
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Orwn and Jim -- both of you watch the ad hom, please.

But Jim, Orwn's not wrong about the difficulty of reading this poem neutrally after your comments in GT, where you railed against "remedial, anodized, cosseting critique" and seemed to want something more pointed. You had to know that the first poem you posted here would receive a bit of harshness.

Perhaps someone else will come along and gratify you with the kind of studied, lively, and pointed critique you claim you're looking for, but these days, anyone who decides to set their shovel to the rich earth between the gravestones of the ostensible greats of bygone eras is going to get scrutinized...and that's regardless of any rabble-rousing in a GT thread.

For what it's worth, anyone who is still around Eratosphere today who was an active participant in TDE a decade and more ago seems fine with providing the same level of criticisms in Metrical. But turning back to this poem in particular, if it were a decade ago, I suspect the response it would receive would be akin to "This is not Deep End material."
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Unread 05-16-2019, 11:36 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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Hi Jim,

To be fair you were asking for it, a little bit. But your GT thread notwithstanding, Walter's assessment is pretty accurate.

Anyway, now I know who you are, welcome back. Deep End eh? Ok, here goes. I don't think the poem is very good. It's hard to read, for the reasons I try to explain below. But even if you were to tidy all that up, it's strained and lacks any kind of punch or surprise. And it's too long. You spend 9 stanzas reacting to the news that Harry and Meghan aren't giving their baby a title by basically saying 'yes, but he's still a posh boy'. It's hard to really discern what the speaker thinks about all this, because the 'wit' is so anaemic.

Our Archie

Oh God, save Archie Harrison,
On him no title Ma’am bestow,
Of rank, oh Lord, let there be none-
It’s plain Mountbatten-Windsor, so.


The comma placement after 'God' at L1 makes this sound like a direct address or appeal to God, rather than the usual subjunctive expression of 'God save the Queen', so it's confusing to have 'Ma'am' on L2 as it sounds like God is being addressed as 'Ma'am'. The punctuation in the poem seems generally very slipshod to me, and much of the syntax strangled.

'So' is a very forced rhyme, especially so early.


Please Lord, let there be no regrets
His blood is blue somewhat diluted,
That he’s not listed in Debretts
Because a peerage was refuted.


Is 'refuted' the right word? The peerage wasn't 'proved to be false'. 'Refused' would work, but wouldn't rhyme. And again, the punctuation isn't helping here. Do you mean 'let there be no regrets...that he’s not listed in Debretts' with 'his blood is blue somewhat diluted' as a sort of parenthetical aside? If so, it's not coming through to me, and the punctuation and initial caps aren't helping.


“Archie Harrison the 1st”
Appealing placates the masses,
But Eton, Cambridge and Sandhurst
Root him in the upper classes.


L2 clangs with 3 beats and hardly makes sense anyway. And L3 only works if I weirdly emphasise 'and' then pronounce 'Sandhurst' as an iamb.


Our Archie, just a mere esq.,?
A lowly pleb, carousing, drinking,
And in ill-fitting cheap attire?
No jolly. way! That’s not our thinking.


Stray full-stop after 'jolly'?


A commoner, he will not reign
Nor have Noblesse Oblige imposed,
At Ascot though, he’ll drink champagne,
Wherein but Royals are enclosed.


L4 has very strangled syntax and 'wherein' seems to connect with 'champagne' rather than 'Ascot', as though the Royals are trapped in a bottle of champagne.



Oh Archie, scion of Prince Harry,
You’re forfeiting a Royalship,
But will retain a customary
Rictus in the upper lip.


This is the best stanza and the only one that made me even vaguely smile, I'm afraid.


Yes, Archie, keep up a resistance,
And your royal mien deploy,
To maintain a proper distance
From the Press and hoi polloi.


The metre is slippery here, because L2,3 and 4 need to be scanned with a headless start to get 4 beats. But 'And', 'To' and 'From' are weak words, so I want to read them as trimeter starting with anapaests (to mainTAIN / from the PRESS). It sounds fine doing this, but I get the sense you're not in control of that ambiguity.


But do remember when you’ve grown,
Your distaff side had been content,
To sacrifice a British throne,
So you could run for President.


I don't know what the commas are doing at the ends of L2,3 and 4.


Young Archie, Harry’s son, dear boy,
You’ll never be the common man,
The truth is that you can’t untie
The apron strings of your Great-gran.


Why no rhyme at L1 and 3? Surely something like 'though you might try' would be simple enough.

Edit: cross-posted with Shaun. His last sentence said it quicker.

Mark
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Unread 05-16-2019, 01:25 PM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
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Hi Jim,

I'm struggling a bit to work out who the N is here. I'd wondered if the N was Meghan, "your distaff side", and her wishes for Archie not to be given a title, but to keep his options open for president. However, the archaic inversions don't really suggest Meghan, a modern American, as the voice. Also the N is a "we" at some point: "that's not our thinking". So maybe the N is an interested (group of) onlooker(s), members of the establishment maybe, civil servants? The press? But what the N's (vested?) interest in all this is, I'm not sure.

The N starts by asking God for Archie to be saved from (full) royalty. The N wants Archie not royal, but also not a pleb: He'll not have a title, but still be a cut above, public-school educated, in the royal box.

It seems odd that the the poem starts with N imploring God to save Archie from a title, when later we're told that he's forfeiting the title. So has the wish been granted in the course of the poem? Again, I'm not quite following.

The N also asks God that there be no regrets, I'm not sure who might be doing the regretting: the public, the N, Meghan, Archie himself?

Back to those inversions. Now arguably you can get away with this given the archaic institution of the monarchy, assuming this is not Meghan's voice. But they get a bit much in places, particularly, "on him no title Ma'am bestow" for "Ma'am, bestow no title on him".

Finally, there are a few places where (lack of) punctuation makes things confusing.

So, anyway, this poem leaves me a bit confused, because I can't pin down the N and the N's interest in these things, which made the poem less satisfying. I'd like it more if I knew who was being sent up -- if, as with Sam's poem, I recognised the voice and attitude. This being satirical light verse, clarity on these matters is important, I think. That said, I don't make an effort to keep up with the royal news, so maybe there are editorials in the Daily Mail I've missed.

Oh God, save Archie Harrison,
On him no title Ma’am bestow,


This seems to say that the N doesn't want him given the title of "Ma'am". Understandable, I guess. But I'd say you need commas here, around "Ma'am", for what I think you want.

Of rank, oh Lord, let there be none-
It’s plain Mountbatten-Windsor, so.

I guess you mean "so" as in "like this" or "just so" rather than "therefore", but it reads awkwardly and hence as rhyme-driven.

Please Lord, let there be no regrets
His blood is blue somewhat diluted,
That he’s not listed in Debrets
Because a peerage was refuted.


It took me a while to parse this, I think you're using "blue somewhat diluted" as the object, like "orange mixed with pink", but at first I read "is blue (and) somewhat diluted". Could just be me, but I think it could be better worded, as I needed to reread the line. You drop "that" from the beginning of L2, so it's a maybe little odd odd to have one start L3 (or maybe I was just thrown by L2). I guess you could resolve both (my) issues, with something like:

"that his blue blood's a tad diluted"

“Archie Harrison the 1st”
Appealing placates the masses,
But Eton, Cambridge and Sandhurst
Root him in the upper classes.


I can't parse: '“Archie Harrison the 1st” appealing placates the masses"'.

What does it mean? Is there some punctuation missing? Do his appeals placate the masses? Do you mean, "The name “Archie Harrison the 1st” is appealing and placates the masses"? As an aside, why do the masses need placating by giving them a non-royal child? My take is that "the masses" (or at least the papers that claim to represent them) quite like a new royal baby.

Our Archie, just a mere esq.,?
A lowly pleb, carousing, drinking,
And in ill-fitting cheap attire?
No jolly. way! That’s not our thinking.


Is the full stop after "jolly" a typo?

A commoner, he will not reign
Nor have Noblesse Oblige imposed,
At Ascot though, he’ll drink champagne,
Wherein but Royals are enclosed.

Oh Archie, scion of Prince Harry,
You’re forfeiting a Royalship,
But will retain a customary
Rictus in the upper lip.


As I said above, what was initially a prayer has now become a fact, it seems. I like the "customary rictus" line.

Yes, Archie, keep up a resistance,
And your royal mien deploy,
To maintain a proper distance
From the Press and hoi polloi.

I think the metre could be tighter in this stanza, I hear:

YES, ARCH|ie, KEEP |UP a | reSIST |tance

L2, is something like:

|AND your | ROYal | MIen | dePLOY

Niether of which are clear iambic tet since iambs don't dominate the line.

L3, since it's headless, could probably do with starting with a syllable that more clearly takes a natural heavy stress than "to". Likewise L4. In L3, you could swap in "please", for example. Otherwise, it can be heard as "to mainTAIN a PROPer DISTance" which is a stress short.

But do remember when you’ve grown,
Your distaff side had been content,
To sacrifice a British throne,
So you could run for President.

Young Archie, Harry’s son, dear boy,
You’ll never be the common man,
The truth is that you can’t untie
The apron strings of your Great-gran.


The Queen in an apron? That's treasonable talk. Maybe something other than "apron" here, something more royal that still plays with the idiom?

Also, given the full rhymes that preceded, can you find a full rhyme to replace the slant rhyme of: boy/tie?

best,

Matt

Last edited by Matt Q; 05-16-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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