[Julie Steiner]

Originally Posted by Aaron Novick

Relatedly, if you were tempted to believe that there exists even one (1) cop who is not a bastard, this twitter thread might help disabuse you of that fantastical notion.

Aaron, the situation is a lot more nuanced than "all cops are bad," regardless of the "FTP" attitude so prevalent on Twitter right now.

Several African American leaders in Minneapolis actually support the Minneapolis Chief of Police and don't want to see him run out of town, even though they are of course deeply unhappy with the situation there.

[Aaron Novick]

Edit: misread something

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

Originally Posted by Aaron Novick

You have both provided compelling arguments that it's very important that Biden wins the election against Trump.

Since my vote has literally no impact whatsoever on the chances of that happening (a fact that would be true even were I voting in a swing state, though, as it happens, I will not be), my vote is purely symbolic. So is yours. So is every vote, considered as an individual vote.

It's a mathematical point, and it's indisputable. It really isn't hard. And it's important that people recognize that, by voting, you are not doing fucking anything to better the world. You're just not.

I suppose this is why people get so pathetically haughty about voting, as Roger is doing. A curious feature about human emotions, that they so often get most inflamed when the stakes are literally nil.

Perhaps you will better understand my point if you recognize that I would not be making such points (though they would still be true) if I had an audience the size of Noam Chomsky, who does not make these points (though I am sure that he, being a rather intelligent fellow, is aware that they are true). As a nobody on the internet, though, I don't see any reason not to point it out.

I have had some modest personal interactions with Noam back during the Iraqi sanctions days. He doesn’t believe that because the somewhat boring use you are making of the distinction between each vote and the sum of votes manages to make a banal truth into an cocktail for complacency. You can make an argument about more meaningful actions, like the one Quincy is making (I think) though I think the minuscule input voting takes is dwarfed by the potential ramifications here in this particular moment that no other “work” compares. You can try to collapse the distinctions between Trump and Biden and say there is effectively no election really here but I think most activists actually in the thick of areas like ecology and immigration or reproductive rights will say your sitting outside the zone where shit gets the most real. But playing word games that say no straw can really claim to weigh anything at all when the camel’s back breaks sounds like a cool blueprint for a perpetual motion machine. I would like to see the world built on that principle. Why fund any org with your peanuts. Dollars don’t matter only bundles of dollars matter. Besides that your claim that something is merely symbolic grossly misunderstands the power of the symbolic. Weird stance for a poet. Electoral cynicism is only slightly harder than naive trust in same. Btw, I am a Jew too and my studies often focused on genocide and the rise of totalitarianism. Exactly zero genocide scholars I know think this is election is stupid or simply a game no matter how disappointing we find the centrist bullshit yet again. I am sure there are some great out there. I just can’t imagine finding them convincing.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

Originally Posted by Roger Slater

Well, "buddy," I said no such thing, and I'm also a Jew who understands math and I don't give a rat's ass how you judge me.

Not supporting the only candidate who has a chance of defeating Trump can indeed plausibly be described as helping Trump get elected. Publicly and persistenly bad-mouthing the only candidate who has a chance of defeating Trump can also plausibily be described as helping Trump get elected.

Of course no individual's vote is likely to sway the election. But don't you philosophers sometimes talk about the need to act in the way you would have everyone else act? Or would you rather just let the less ideologically pure masses defeat Trump for you while you get to feel superior to them for not having done your part? I guess you're a conscientious objecter in a war you hope the real soldiers will help you win.

Bob,
People are just pissed. The railroading in of Biden and the machining out of the majority will for many of the excellent policies and ugly truths that Sanders et al brought forward was a betrayal. When the smoke clears, if it does, and Halfwit Hitler isn’t in style the Democrats are finished if they don’t come clean and open the party to their left. We are done. The rising generations aren’t going to make the leap from flower child to hedge fund. What is coming won’t allow that.
That said I appreciate that Schulz grilling and hope it turns out Biden is simply open to actually representing the people and somehow smart enough to see the only viable way forward is a total rejection of the economic growth as compass disaster. Return to status quo is death sentence for so many.

[Aaron Novick]

Thanks, Andrew. Yes, the deeper point here is that the Democrats are not owed anyone's vote. They have to earn it, and simply not being Trump is not earning it. All ire directed toward people whose votes the Dems did not earn should be redirected to the Dems—they are the ones who did wrong by not earning them.

The Democrats have not earned my vote. I might give it to them or I might not, I haven't decided yet. But they have not earned it.

[James Brancheau]

Not being Trump is a pretty big deal. Democrats could nominate a labradoodle or a fudgesicle and that would be enough to earn my vote. For this election.

[Roger Slater]

I've never understood why any rational person wouldn't always choose the lesser of two evils. Yes, it's disappointing not to have a choice between good and bad, but it seems to me that everyone involved in this discussion agrees that we would rather have Biden as president than Trump (and I simply cannot engage with anyone who might disagree with that proposition). Under the circumstances, I am completely at a loss to understand why this doesn't necessarily entail supporting Biden's candidacy. You can talk all you want about 'earning votes', and you can sigh and lament to you heart's content as you step into the voting booth with tears in your eyes, but if you'd rather have Biden than Trump there's no getting around the fact that you have to pull the lever for Biden. A starving camper lost in the wilderness will eat insects to stay alive. It's not that he wouldn't rather be enjoying a cheeseburger.

[James Brancheau]

I think, too, Aaron, what you want must gain much more momentum, then, erm, I don't know what I'm going to do in an election that's fast approaching. Usually I'd stress the importance of supreme court nominations. Which are, of course, of supreme importance. But I have to say, four more years of this? I really don't know about four more months. This is a national emergency. And you know that's not an exaggeration. I'd think you'd have to be pretty removed to think otherwise.

[Mark McDonnell]

Yep. What James and Roger said. However infuriating the clichés about life not always being fair and playing the hand you're dealt, well, they're clichés because they're true (another cliche I know). If you want Trump out, there's literally only one guaranteed thing you can do to play a part in making that happen, however much it galls you.

[Max Goodman]

Originally Posted by Roger Slater

I've never understood why any rational person wouldn't always choose the lesser of two evils.

Because it teaches those offering the choices that a lesser evil is good enough. Voting for candidates who can't win rationally looks past the current election to the sort of leaders we want to elect in future elections.

The electoral college provides a further reason. Rational people who don't live in swing states understand that their votes don't affect the outcomes of presidential elections, so it's rational to use those votes to send messages.

Originally Posted by Roger Slater

A starving camper lost in the wilderness will eat insects to stay alive. It's not that he wouldn't rather be enjoying a cheeseburger.

Eating insects doesn't make it less likely he'll get a cheeseburger in the future.

I've tended to vote Green in presidential elections, though I voted for Senator Clinton and am leaning toward Biden. If he runs with Klobuchar, I might vote Green. If he runs with Warren or Abrams or otherwise shows he'll be responsive to the country's liberal majority, I might donate time, money, and enthusiasm to electing him. That--as far as affecting the outcome is concerned--is my real vote, and Biden, though he's moving in the right direction, hasn't earned it yet.

The reason I have hope for 2020 is that the presidency may be irrelevant for a while. Trump isn't directing the country. Activists, cops, sheriffs, mayors, and (when it comes to the pandemic) governors are. Ol' Man Biden may yet turn out to be the ideal follower president.