Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Unread 07-21-2019, 06:04 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Taipei
Posts: 2,623
Default

I don't feel any particular obligation to get into their minds as a poet, Mark, but I would agree that understanding why is important if we want to try to change things. I don't think it's actually beyond my understanding, but keep in mind that getting to the reason behind it may not be all that comforting. I think much of his support comes down to hate, prejudice, and of course ignorance. Often, willful ignorance because they need things to conform to their worldview (ie, fake news). Both the racism and the dismantling of the truth are extremely dangerous and call for robust pushback. And that's where we probably disagree. And that's ok. If you could be suddenly transported to Germany in the 1930s (and no, we are not there yet), you're not going to think 'I don't want to lump all these Nazis in with Hitler. Some of them are probably very fine people and I'm sure they have their reasons.'
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Unread 07-21-2019, 06:18 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Staffordshire, England
Posts: 4,420
Default

I don't think you're obliged to write some sympathetic persona poem, James. That isn't what I meant.

Quote:
Both the racism and the dismantling of the truth are extremely dangerous and call for robust pushback. And that's where we probably disagree.
What on earth makes you think I disagree with this??

And when, even slightly, did I suggest some Trump voters, let alone Nazis, were 'very fine people'?? The highest praise I gave them was being 'flawed' and 'not irredeemable'.

I apologise. I'll leave my contribution there, before I get compared to Trump after Charlottesville.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Unread 07-21-2019, 06:38 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Taipei
Posts: 2,623
Default

Wasn't my intention to do that, at all, Mark. Weren't we talking about "deplorables" ?? And how we shouldn't refer to millions of people this way (lump them together)? I'm simply saying you can. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yeah it's hard to make Nazi references...
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Unread 07-21-2019, 06:58 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Staffordshire, England
Posts: 4,420
Default

We were talking about any Trump voter. I started by quoting you, 'voting for that man is beyond my comprehension'.

It's fine, James. I'll leave it there. Big big love.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Unread 07-21-2019, 07:25 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Taipei
Posts: 2,623
Default

I'd never think that about you, Mark, and, again, sorry if I gave you that idea. (And just to be clear about my point above, I'm not talking about people who happened to vote for Trump. I'm referring to his hardcore supporters.)
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Unread 07-21-2019, 11:11 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Staffordshire, England
Posts: 4,420
Default

Thanks, James. Maybe I was over-dramatic. We're good, as they say over there. I should probably stick to events on this side of the Atlantic.

Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Unread 07-24-2019, 11:38 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,197
Default

x
This conversation cascaded much too quickly for me to keep up and now it’s slowed to nary a trickle... I have been compiling notes but have not been able to condense them -- though I doubt they turn over any new stones or may not even shed any light -- but that's up to others to decide. I just want to unload them : )

Here goes.

Until someone here comes forward who sees things differently than us, we are the choir debating about whether we are singing a C sharp or a D flat.

Mark: And when, even slightly, did I suggest some Trump voters, let alone Nazis, were 'very fine people'?? The highest praise I gave them was being 'flawed' and 'not irredeemable'.
I apologise. I'll leave my contribution there, before I get compared to Trump after Charlottesville.


There is no doubt in my mind, Mark, that you are following events here as closely if not closer than most. I like all of your observations. Compared to most, you are well-informed and judicious in your remarks. (Is Boris as horrible as is reported? Perhaps for another thread...)

Still, to call those hardcore Trump supporters “flawed” --the ones that fill his arena rallies and chant slurs and spew hatred -- is euphemistic. You overlook the matter of to what degree they are flawed. Playing off a few tropes (not the least of which is religion as one of Trump’s most potent playing cards), if the devil is in the details, then Trump is that devil in the details. Flawed? I’m flawed. Your flawed. We’re all fucking flawed. Excuse me… We are all flipping flawed (there, I feel better). But the deplorables are more than flawed. In fact, they are more than deplorable. More than despicable. They are deplorably, despicably dangerous when we have a president who empowers them to achieve his own narcissistic cravings.


Julie: “...Trump… is [a] poster child for the Prime Directive of the modern Republican Party, which is "Never, Ever Apologize or Admit Fault for Anything." (Unless it's "When Caught in a Lie, Just Keep on Lying, and Then Say That the Media's Fact-Checkers Are Biased Against You.")

Yes, that’s the situation in a nutshell. Though full disclosure would show that the overwhelming majority of politicians follow the same directive. (It must be in the congressional campaign handbook).
But may I cram two more things into the Prime Directive? Money and lawyers. They (Trump and his thugs) employ all the strategies that you say (lying, etc.) -- all of which are made possible by money and lawyers to warp and pervert linear time into a never-ending morass of deceit, circular arguments and gaslighting that foil the conventional/constitutional safeguards our nation put into place to prevent just such a scenario. Money and lawyers: the safety net of the rich. (Look at Jeffery Epstein).
I think we here are over-analyzing things; plotting the dots as they are appearing to us and trying to connect them, thinking when all the dots are connected people will see. But it only serves as a Rorschach Test. What must happen to end the madness and restore civility and maturity and 21st century thinking to our American psyche? We must vote. And get others to vote.

Last night I watched documentary video footage of the 9 days of the Apollo 11 moon landing and was overwhelmed by the resolve of our nation to accomplish something for the betterment of our planet. Yes, the devil is in the details, and no, things were not perfect back then either -- But the kicker of it was that it was not that long ago yet it seemed like another world. I was overwhelmed. Now here we are. (Where are we? Where have we gone? Is this still Earth?)

About the Community of Deplorables... They are a four-headed monster: there are the deplorables that camp out for days to get inside the toxic circus tent of Trump’s rallies (The Kool-Aid Deplorables) and then there are those deplorables who, for various deplorable reasons, support him to advance their special interest at the expense of all others (anti-abortionists, NRA loyalists, fossil fuel conglomerates, etc.). Then there are those who are either apathetic or unmoved by his gross incompetence and lack of integrity and monstrous greedy narcissism. They don’t vote. Deplorable. Finally, there is a significant number -- I’d guess 5% -- who are closet deplorables. They don’t want to be in any way associated with the stereotype Trump Deplorable, so they feign indifference, claim they are non-political, remain in the closet. But when the time comes they will enter the voting booth and vote Trump. He has stupefied them. The deplorables sneer at our indignation with them. Trump knows how to keep them under his wing. Collectively they are a pig with lipstick on.

Trump has turned us away from global awareness. His support remains strong, not only because he conceals his contempt for his own voter base (which I think you are absolutely right, Julie, is saying he (Trump) also considers them deplorable but valuable at the same time) but also because he is narcissistic, amoral/immoral product of a bygone “Madman” generation of men and the women who fawn over them.

The good and bad news is that our economy is strong (thanks to rollback of regulations that were put into place to safeguard our economy from another great recession, a disregard for our commitment to climate change and our commitment to our allies, a turn away from investment in renewable energy and towards fossil fuel, and a disdain for the international institutions (UN, etc.) that have worked so hard to construct a global vision of the world). It makes me sick; it hollows out my heart.

I firmly believe his/their day will come. This will be the theme song.

One more thing: I firmly believe that Putin’s motivation for meddling in our elections was because he believes HRC meddled in their elections during her tenure as Secretary of State. See here. Putin’s motivation was not because he liked Trump, but because he despises HRC. He did it to prevent HRC from getting elected. He and Hilary are arch enemies. The devil, of course, is in the details. Namely, Trump. I don't like him as a person, as a man, as a leader.

From the beginning I was rambling.
x
x

Last edited by Jim Moonan; 07-24-2019 at 08:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 8,399
Total Threads: 21,840
Total Posts: 270,804
There are 1962 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online