[Maryann Corbett]

Originally Posted by Janet Kenny

I don't agree that one might as well always write regular metrical poetry if one is not going to write syllabics.

Is that what Alicia said? I believe the point was, if one is not going to "resist--work somewhat against--a regular metrical pattern, you might as well just write accentual syllabic verse."

And all day I've been thinking about responding that the Wilbur poem that Alicia posted above doesn't appear to be resisting a regular metrical pattern, though it doesn't insist on it either, which is how we know it isn't simply a metrical poem. The same is true of the Daryush. The Plath, even though a lot of it falls into dimeter if you let it, resists a little more, I would say.

The Espaillat I can't get back to without losing this post, but when I can I'm going to test out the hypothesis that a longer line--those eleven syllables--gives you more variety to play with and might make it easier to "resist" a pattern, or just plain avoid one.

Originally Posted by Janet Kenny

I would love a response to the classical Italian song I posted further back on this thread, with a superb link which shows the words in the score as the singer sings the song, My point was that its stresses are similar to English stresses despite the obvious differences.

Janet, can I say thanks for the memories? And for the Bartoli? But I may not be grasping your real point. Certainly the text is metrical, even accentual-syllabic, to my ear; as it's set, the unstressed syllables get shorter note values than the stressed ones.

Janice, I'd read the Thomas "This Bread I Break" as a metrical poem. It's such a clear pattern of tet and dimeter, so firmly set early in S1, that even though S1L4 needs a little nudging to get into pattern, I'd nudge.

Maybe I've been hanging around on Met too long. I'm hearing darn near everything as metrical today.

[Mark Allinson]

Well, whatever else anyone says about syllabics, apparently they are NOT a metrical form, since I see that the poems on Met have all been moved.

How pathetic!

[Maryann Corbett]

Mark, kindly read what I wrote when I moved them. If you want to initiate a discussion specifically about a change of rules, do so. If the community decides to change the rules, fine. Until then, they are what they are.

I've posted blank verse and my very bumpy IP on Nonmet. I considered those poems metrical; I just didn't want them carved up by the strict metricists.

Please PM me so I can understand why this upsets you.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Janice, I'd read the Thomas "This Bread I Break" as a metrical poem. It's such a clear pattern of tet and dimeter, so firmly set early in S1, that even though S1L4 needs a little nudging to get into pattern, I'd nudge.

Thanks, Maryann. And I guess I am trying to read everything as syllabics

I will try to take this Dylan poem apart so I understand. I would love to attend a class in scansion. Fat chance of doing it in Sweden. I need to read the Steele book properly, and not just use it as a reference book. Maybe this summer when I retire again.

Thanks for telling me.

[Janet Kenny]

Maryann (with apologies I had a senior moment and typed "Janice"),
In response to your post:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet Kenny
I would love a response to the classical Italian song I posted further back on this thread, with a superb link which shows the words in the score as the singer sings the song, My point was that its stresses are similar to English stresses despite the obvious differences.
Janet, can I say thanks for the memories? And for the Bartoli? But I may not be grasping your real point. Certainly the text is metrical, even accentual-syllabic, to my ear; as it's set, the unstressed syllables get shorter note values than the stressed ones. "
__________________

I was discussing transferring forms across languages. I had said that forms grew out of a relevant language and not all forms transferred to all other languages. Alicia had mentioned the Italian origin of the sonnet and my post was in response to that. Not much violence is done to the basic Italian sonnet when the form is adopted by English poets. My impression is that Spanish is beautifully suited to the sonnet form.

I don't know Greek and have only listened to it in Greek news broadcasts and occasional songs. Alicia will know better than I if the stresses and syntax of Greek have much in common with English. As I understand it English owes more to Latin than it does to Greek which is why Italian and English can still have a love affair. (I know that Greek is in there but I'm speaking about what we have now.)

Blank verse and free verse already seem to do what syllabics can do in English.

[Mark Allinson]

Maryann,

I do understand your position - you are merely following the guidelines, as you should.

I am not upset with you, or anyone, personally, so I don't think I need to go to PM on this matter. Let my comments be part of the debate you mentioned.

I have ALWAYS believed that it was pathetic for a metrical poetry board to discriminate against SOME metrical forms, mainly on the basis (it seems) that some can't hear them or are otherwise indifferent to them.

But if I spend a considerable amount of time shaping and forming a poem according to a certain rule of measurement - in this case, counting syllables - I would like the poem to be open to criticism of its formal dimensions. Isn't that why we have a separate metrical board?

And anyway, counting syllables is only a part of the process of making a syllabic poem - rhythms need to be de-regularized through diction choices with the same amount of care and attention we might give to regularizing them.

The syllabic poem is NOT a product of free choices, as in cadenced FV, but is a product of regular, measured calculations.

In short, a syllabic IS a metrical poem, and shouldn't be treated as FV simply because few seem to understand the form.

I am fine with the idea of treating all poems equally - but in that case, let's just have the one big forum.

Instead of shunting all "difficult" or problematic forms into the FV forum, why shouldn't members be given the chance to engage with these forms and maybe learn something from the exercise?

[Janet Kenny]

Mark said:
The syllabic poem is NOT a product of free choices, as in cadenced FV, but is a product of regular, measured calculations.

Who hasn't understood this Mark?

I guess when I said blank verse and free verse did it in English it gave that impression. You can count in blank verse and there's nothing to stop a poet from varying the beat.

It's much harder to critique something so personal. A poet can always say "That's what I wanted to do". End of discussion.

I guess that's true for all critique in the end. In the end the audience response is the only measurement.

[Mark Allinson]

Mark said:

The syllabic poem is NOT a product of free choices, as in cadenced FV, but is a product of regular, measured calculations.

Janet replied:

Who hasn't understood this Mark?

So why are syllabics designated as FV on this site?

[Janet Kenny]

Ah! There you have me ;-)

[Maryann Corbett]

Mark, Janet,

So that we can keep THIS thread focused on excellent examples of syllabics and continue to learn about them (which I need!), I've copied the contents on Mark's post into a thread-starting post down on GT. Let's please have the debate there, and continue the Mastery discussion here.