[Mark McDonnell]

I just donated to the MFF throuh PayPal. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Aaron. Julie's 'San Diegans For Justice' organisation looks like a very positive thing also. It's good to do something.

[Jim Moonan]

x
Come on Aaron. I don't place him on a pedestal. I don't think "following" someone means you consider him or her flawless. It means you consider them an ally in the fight for a better world. Align — not follow — if you must. But the time is short. There is a fog that grows thicker and thicker by the day.

The issues of illegal immigration and usage of drones in war zones (specifically and intentionally to bomb children? Show me) is a complicated one. They are not — literally — black and white issues. Racism is, and he (Obama) stands on the right side of the American effort to squash it wherever and whenever and however he can. It';s a movement that was gaining momentum during the Obama years (as well as gun control) but became immediately hamstrung on 1/20/17.

Here is a compilation of historians' assessments of Obama's legacy. I'll take it every day over the swath of legacy that Trump spews every day.

Who do you align yourself with?

(Maybe I should stick to poetry too. I'd rather. Except my conscience pulls me here)
x
x

[Aaron Novick]

My favorite argument in the history of philosophy is the Mohist argument against offensive warfare. Here's the argument. Killing one person is wrong (we all agree on this). Killing ten people is ten times as wrong (we agree on this as well). Killing one hundred people is one hundred times as wrong (agreement once again). Well, war kills many thousands of people. Why do we suddenly stop agreeing that it is many thousands of times as wrong?

I love this argument because it is simple to the point of stupidity, and cuts effortlessly through every "sophisticated" attempt to consider "complications" that "justify" what is patently wrong.

Obama used drone warfare in ways that he knew would kill civilians, including children. He did it anyway. That suffices, for me, to consider his war crimes "specific" and "intentional". If you disagree, then you attach irrelevant meanings to those words.

I align myself with justice, as best as I can recognize it. I do not consider war criminals as my allies in this.

[Aaron Novick]

Would I rather have Obama as president than Trump?* Of course. I'm a pragmatic guy. I'd rather less evil over more evil.

But to believe that the issue of police brutality is a problem that can be solved by voting is sheer fantasy. Need I remind you that Minnesota is as blue a state as they come?

The republicans as the "shoot them in the head" party and the democrats as the "shoot them in the leg" party is the sort of thing that—before it became our reality in this, the year of our loud 2020—an unfunny person would propose as a joke, a joke that would fail because it is too on the nose.

*Better Trump than Bush, though. Trump, at least, has not done anything comparable to starting the Iraq War. Actually, it's a good test: if you would prefer Bush to Trump as president, it shows your relationship to politics is purely aesthetic.

[Mark McDonnell]

I'm a pragmatic guy. I'd rather less evil over more evil.

So you'll be voting for Biden, then.

But to believe that the issue of police brutality is a problem that can be solved by voting is sheer fantasy.

Neither I, Jim, or anyone on this thread has suggested this.

Trump, at least, has not done anything comparable to starting the Iraq War.

If 9/11 had happened on Trump's watch, I think there's a strong possibility that we would all be dead right now.

[Mark McDonnell]

But anyway, I recognise the moment on these threads where I start arguing with people who I like, respect and largely agree with, so I'll bow out now (honest) and read what others have to say with interest.

[Catherine Chandler]

Stay safe, friends.

[Aaron Novick]

As a pragmatic guy, I recognize that an individual's vote is irrelevant. At best, a vote for Biden would express symbolic commitment to the lesser of two evils. But I might find I prefer the symbolism of not voting, this time around. We'll see. I am genuinely undecided. But let us not lose sight of the fact that voting is a symbolic act and nothing more.

I'll admit I really don't know what the hell Jim meant with his "keep our eye on the ball" metaphor. Given how closely he tied Obama's presidency to "keeping our eye on the ball" and Trump's presidency to not doing so, you can understand my interpretation, I hope.

The one thing I can say to Trump's credit is that he has shown little interest in starting extended violent conflicts in other countries, even when he's had the opportunity, so I think it is far from obvious that Trump's response to 9/11 would have been more catastrophic than Bush's. Regardless, we can argue counterfactuals until we're blue in the face. The fact remains that Bush started an offensive war that has killed hundreds of thousands (minimum), and Trump, as yet, has not done so.

[Mark McDonnell]

OK, I lied. I'm back.

I don't know where you live, Aaron, but how is voting an irrelevant symbolic act if you live in a swing state? I understand that the two party system is really no choice at all, that voting gives people the illusion of autonomy in a completely rigged system etc. I get all that. But I'm talking specifically about this election and the onus on getting Trump OUT, because I genuinely believe it isn't worth taking the risk of four more years of him. Yes, Biden might be a waste of space, but this time it isn't about who you are voting in. But when he is in people like you and the more progressive end of the Democratic party could at least do everything in their power to influence him and hold him to account.
There's no doing that with Trump. I'm sure I remember having a debate with you a couple of years ago about whether Trump represented the beginnings of genuine fascism in the US with you saying he clearly did and me balking at the word. What's changed? It's like Stockholm Syndrome. How can you not want to do everything to get him out?

Also.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...war-bombs-2019

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/02/...asualties-war/

And now I'm done.

Edit: final word. I don't want to be accused of 'vote-shaming' you (a phrase I heard for the first time a few days ago). Do what you will, it's your right.

[Aaron Novick]

Good news: Minneapolis Public Schools cut all ties with MPD. https://twitter.com/ozzythepainter/s...55955356106757

May every other school in the country do the same.

Mark, you don't need to worry about vote-shaming me. We disagree about the value of an individual vote. Nobody need be shamed by mere disagreement.