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  #21  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:53 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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It's astonishing to me to see how the Republican establishment has been stripped of spine and principle over the past thirty or forty years. All that seems left is the naked pursuit of power at all costs. But as Truman said, "We'll give 'em the truth and it will feel like Hell." We seem now to be reliant on Bob Mueller, one lone man, to counterbalance systemic corruption and fraud at the top. What a sad day. But I think his method, and his driving force, is strict adherence to impartial justice.
Can the end justify the means? As a scholar of the French Revolution, I am reluctant to say yes. Lots of good people have. I am I guess a little Kantian in his debate with Constant about lying to a murderer.

Cheers,
John
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  #22  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:02 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is offline
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It's not a question of the ends justifying the means when the ends and the means are both reprehensible.

If we have to rely on one person to save us, we could do worse than Mueller.
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  #23  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:03 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Goodman View Post
Ethics and justice only work if they're respected by both sides...
We can't afford to keep bringing ethics and a desire for justice to this knife fight.


So the right obtains an unfair advantage by such unethical practices as ridiculous levels of gerrymandering and obstruction. Are you proposing that the Democrats commit equivalent unethical practices to even the playing field? Wouldn’t that make us just as despicable and part of the problem, being unethical practices? Should we stoop as low and likewise be as flagrant of violators of ethics? I think the practices ought to be fully exposed, brought to account, and corrected, not imitated.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 11-02-2017 at 01:06 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:20 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
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I'm with Erik on this one. In brief.

Cheers,
John
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  #25  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:24 PM
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Aaron Novick Aaron Novick is online now
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The optimal state is surely the one where, the next time the Democrats have power, they work to limit both parties' abilities to rig the game. Unlikely, but it would be nice.

In the meantime, I would much rather the Democrats play as dirty as the Republicans instead of meekly claiming "principle" (read: spinelessness) as an excuse for being worthless do-nothings, which is what they are currently doing.

So, to answer Erik, yes, until the rules change, I would absolutely like the Democrats to engage in ridiculous gerrymandering and obstructionism.
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  #26  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:28 PM
Max Goodman Max Goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Olson View Post
Are you proposing that the Democrats commit equivalent unethical practices to even the playing field?
I'm suggesting that, with so much at stake, we needn't feel embarrassed to include political calculation in our response to attacks on our democracy.
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Originally Posted by Erik Olson View Post
I think the practices ought to be fully exposed
I don't know about "fully," but these tactics have certainly been exposed; many of them, in fact, are done in the open, with no shame.
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Originally Posted by Erik Olson View Post
brought to account
can't be done as long the malefactors hold the power
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and corrected
Tell us how. I'll be the first to support a workable plan.
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  #27  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:34 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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Well, after having obstructed and gerrymandered, been unethical and done all for which we detest Republicans, how can we then go back and claim to be beholden to principles?
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  #28  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:36 PM
Erik Olson Erik Olson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Goodman View Post
I'm suggesting that, with so much at stake, we needn't feel embarrassed to include political calculation in our response to attacks on our democracy.
Oh, yes, I agree we ought to have a political calculation in how we proceed, of necessity. But that need not imply being equally unethical.

As to how to end the practices, having been exposed, I think the Supreme Court is currently examining the issue of partisan gerrymandering. It actually took me aback that Prominent Republicans Urge Supreme Court to End Gerrymandering.

Further, This is how to get rid of gerrymandered districts. Until the courts come out with a potential solution, as the efficiency gap proposed in the Whitford v. Gill, some states meanwhile are trying different ways to draw districts that can reduce gerrymandering and improve representation.

Last edited by Erik Olson; 11-02-2017 at 02:13 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:43 PM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
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I'm with Max. Sometimes you have to go to war. I'd take it up a notch even. And I think the ends do justify the means. Maybe it was the sudden brashness of white supremacists that got my attention. I understand the ideal, but we're far, far from that.
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  #30  
Old 11-02-2017, 05:47 PM
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Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Novick View Post
The optimal state is surely the one where, the next time the Democrats have power, they work to limit both parties' abilities to rig the game. Unlikely, but it would be nice.

In the meantime, I would much rather the Democrats play as dirty as the Republicans instead of meekly claiming "principle" (read: spinelessness) as an excuse for being worthless do-nothings, which is what they are currently doing.

So, to answer Erik, yes, until the rules change, I would absolutely like the Democrats to engage in ridiculous gerrymandering and obstructionism.
The optimal state is that the Democrats hang around long enough to get rid of the scum their stupidity helped open the door for, and then they too get shoved out by a party actually interested in facing the catastophe the American way has become. Sanders and a few other like Tulsi Gabbard can stay. The rest might be alright in comparison to Amber Adolf and the White Sheets but no serious move toward "resistance" or reparations can happen with the anything remotely like the shills in office these last decades.
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