[Mark Allinson]

It has come to my attention from time to time on this site (and others) that some folk hold to the opinion that an identity of rhymed syllable is no rhyme at all.

And yet, I could point out a few thousand examples of just this identity of rhyme on the same syllable sound throughout the history of English verse. For instance, when Donne rhymes on the same "day" syllable here:

This no to-morrow hath, nor yesterday ;
Running it never runs from us away,
But truly keeps his first, last, everlasting day.

And Spenser here on "roll" (Amoretti X).

BANNED POST and that high look, with which she doth comptroll
BANNED POST all this worlds pride bow to a baser make,
BANNED POST and al her faults in thy black booke enroll.

What I would like to know is, who subscribes to this theory of the illegitimacy of identity in rhyme, and where did it come from? And (if we are to follow it) when did we lose the prosodic rights enjoyed by generations of poets?

Below I have pasted in below some examples of what appear to me to be instances of so-called "identity" (and thus "illegitimate" rhymes) from Shakespeare's Sonnets. And I could reproduce the same frequency of "identity of rhyme" in a dozen other poets of the first water.

I would be keen to hear your views on this.

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Ten times thyself were happier than thou art,
If ten of thine ten times refigured thee;
Then what could Death do if thou shouldst depart,

- Sonnet 6.

When I perceive that men as plants increase,
Cheered and checked even by the selfsame sky,
Vaunt in their youthful sap, at height decrease,

- Sonnet 15

An eye more bright than theirs, less false in rolling,
Gilding the object whereupon it gazeth;
A maiden hue all Hues in his controlling

- Sonnet 20

May make seem bare in wanting words to show it,
But that I hope some good conceit of thine
In thy soul's thought, all naked, will bestow it;

- Sonnet 26.


Take all my loves, my love, yea, take them all;
What hast thou then more than thou hadst before?
No love, my love, that thou mayst true love call;
All mine was thine before thou hadst this more.
Then if for my love thou my love receivest,
I cannot blame thee, for my love thou usest;
But yet be blamed, if thou thyself deceivest

- Sonnet 40.

But be contented when that fell arrest
Without all bail shall carry me away;
My life hath in this line some interest,

- Sonnet 74.

Some glory in their birth, some in their skill,
Some in their wealth, some in their body's force,
Some in their garments -though newfangled ill

- Sonnet 91.

To me, fair friend, you never can be old,
For as you were when first your eye I eyed,
Such seems your beauty still. Three winters cold

- Sonnet 104.

Fair, kind, and true, have often lived alone,
Which three till now never kept seat in one.

- Sonnet 105.

Weighs not the dust and injury of age,
Nor gives to necessary wrinkles place,
But makes antiquity for aye his page,

- Sonnet 108.

For nothing this wide universe I call
Save thou, my rose; in it thou art my all.

- Sonnet 109.

Your love and pity doth th' impression fill
Which vulgar scandal stamped upon my brow;
For what care I who calls me well or ill,

- Sonnet 112.

And my great mind most kingly drinks it up.
Mine eye well knows what with his gust is 'greeing,
And to his palate doth prepare the cup.

- Sonnet 114.

What thou dost foist upon us that is old,
And rather make them born to our desire
Than think that we before have heard them told.

- Sonnet 123.

Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in overplus;
More than enough am I that vex thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus.
Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious,
Not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?
Shall will in others seem right gracious,
And in my will no fair acceptance shine?
The sea, all water, yet receives rain still,
And in abundance addeth to his store;
So thou, being rich in Will, add to thy Will
One will of mine to make thy large Will more.
Let no unkind no fair beseechers kill;
Think all but one, and me in that one Will.

- Sonnet 135.


And wherefore say not I that I am old?.
O, love's best habit is in seeming trust,
And age in love loves not to have years told.

- Sonnet 138.

Be wise as thou art cruel; do not press
My tongue-tied patience with too much disdain,
Lest sorrow lend me words, and words express

- Sonnet 140.

Which like two spirits do suggest me still;
The better angel is a man right fair,
The worser spirit a woman coloured ill.

- Sonnet 144.

Dost thou upon thy fading mansion spend?
Shall worms, inheritors of this excess,
Eat up thy charge? Is this thy body's end?

- Sonnet 146.

My love is as a fever, longing still
For that which longer nurseth the disease,
Feeding on that which doth preserve the ill,

- Sonnet 147.

Past cure I am, now reason is past care,
And frantic-mad with evermore unrest;
My thoughts and my discourse as madmen's are,

- Sonnet 147

Whence hast thou this becoming of things ill,
That in the very refuse of thy deeds
There is such strength and warrantise of skill

- Sonnet 150.

My nobler part to my gross body's treason -
My soul doth tell my body that he may
Triumph in love; flesh stays no farther reason,

- Sonnet 151.

But why of two oaths' breach do I accuse thee,
When I break twenty? I am perjured most,
For all my vows are oaths but to misuse thee,

- Sonnet 152.




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Mark Allinson

[Janet Kenny]

Mark,
Doesn't it always come down to "how"? A matter of panache.
Janet

[Alder Ellis]

Donald Justice does this a lot, especially in his late poems -- he has a few using the stanza form xaxabb, where the rhymes are either "rime riche" (same sound, often same spelling, but different meanings) or simply identical words. It has a subtly subversive effect which I find very intriguing. Here is an example, the last poem in his Collected Poems.

There is a gold light in certain old paintings

1

There is a gold light in certain old paintings
That represents a diffusion of sunlight.
It is like happiness, when we are happy.
It comes from everywhere and from nowhere at once, this light,
BANNED POSTBANNED POSTBANNED POSTAnd the poor soldiers sprawled at the foot of the cross
BANNED POSTBANNED POSTBANNED POSTShare in its charity equally with the cross.

2

Orpheus hesitated beside the black river.
With so much to look forward to he looked back.
We think he sang then, but the song is lost.
At least he had seen once more the beloved back.
BANNED POSTBANNED POSTBANNED POSTI say the song went this way: O prolong
BANNED POSTBANNED POSTBANNED POSTNow the sorrow if that is all there is to prolong.

3

The world is very dusty, uncle. Let us work.
One day the sickness shall pass from the earth for good.
The orchard will bloom; someone will play the guitar.
Our work will be seen as strong and clean and good.
BANNED POSTBANNED POSTBANNED POSTAnd all that we suffered through having existed
BANNED POSTBANNED POSTBANNED POSTShall be forgotten as though it had never existed.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Mark,

After looking at your examples, I'm wanting to ask cattily (and will) what sort of weird regional accent you have that many of these aren't reading not only perfect rhymes, but as perfect rhymes of a single syllable.

Your number two, rhyming comptroll/enroll is a perfect rhyme since when you hyphenate words between the syllables, you have comp-troll and en-roll.

troll/roll is a perfect rhyme of a single syllable.

As for yesterday/lasting day, that's a slant rhyme between "yest" and "last," the accented syllables of the two dactyls.

So Donne used a slant. Big whoop. You want a perfect rhyme for all three syllables, you rhyme "lasting day" with "fasting day" or something.

On to Shakespeare, he rhymes art with depart. "art" is accented. So is "part." art/part is a perfect rhyme.

With the next, increase/decrease is actually simple repetition of "crease," the accented syllable. Not a rhyme, but the secret slant between plants and height blesses this with the same trick Donne used for his yest/last slant.

Shakespeare's next, "in rolling/controlling," if you look to the accented syllable, is our old friend roll/troll, used by Spenser in your first example. Shakespeare adds a slant with the unaccented in/con.

Next, "to show it" with "bestow it" is a rhyme on the accented syllabes of show/stow. A perfect rhyme.

Sonnet 40 rhymes receivest/deceivest. What's not to like here? It's a triple rhyme no less.

Sonnet 74: arrest/interest rhymes perfectly if you use the common shortening of the second, rapidly spoken, to int'rest, which then rhymes rest/trest.

Sonnet 91: On what planet can skill/ill be argued as anything other than a perfect rhyme of a single accented syllable?

Sonnet 104: As with Sonnet 91, but old/cold is such a familiar rhyme I'm again wondering as to your grasp of English pronunciation.

Sonnet 105: "alone/in one" is a slant, but a pretty common one. It's lone/one as the slant, on the accented syllable.

Sonnet 108: age/page Again, on what planet is this not a single syllable perfect rhyme?

Sonnet 109: call/all is a perfect rhyme, as is I/my with the syllables before. What on earth is there to complain about here?

Sonnet 112: Now fill/ill? Again, what is the problem here?

Sonnet 114: up/cup Not only is this good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for Dr. Seuss.

Sonnet 123: old/told Another perfect rhyme suitable for children's primers.

Sonnet 135: Yes, will/still is a perfect rhyme, but Shakespeare does indeed repeat still once and will twice more. It's pretty obvious he's doing it for effect, as in villanelle. However, as he invented Shakespearean sonnet, I don't think it's giving the Bard too much slack to let him screw with the form if he feels like it.

Sonnet 138: old/told Did someone tell you some insane thing about not being able to rhyme any syllable that starts with a vowel or something?

Sonnet 140: press/express Try reading this aloud. Then realize that "express" is pronounced "ekspres" which breaks down on the syllables to ek-spres. Rhyming press/spres is a perfect rhyme. Score another for the Bard.

Sonnet 144: still/ill Again, the problem?

Sonnet 146: spend/end Ditto.

Sonnet 147: still/ill Not only is it a perfect rhyme, but such a serviceable one the Bard recycles it not three sonnets later.

Sonnet 147: care/are A perfectly legal slant.

Sonnet 150: ill/skill Evidently the Bard really has a thing for repeating "ill" in these sonnets. I suspect he was laid up in bed while he wrote them.

Sonnet 151: reason/treason Again, a perfectly acceptable if completely overused rhyme, for the simple fact that the only other word that rhymes perfectly with these two is "season."

Sonnet 152: accuse thee/misuse thee. The accents go on cuse/use. What is the problem here?

What on earth is the problem here, Mark? It's like you're questioning the rhymes from Hop on Pop. Hell, some of them are even same rhymes as in Hop on Pop. cup/up? old/cold?

[Janet Kenny]

My philosophy is--if it works use it.
We don't need a legal precedent to use anything in poetry. If a thousand poets did something in the past it confers no certainty on the thousand and first.

Write my dear fellows. Write!
Janet

[Mark Allinson]

Yes, Janet, that is precisely what I want to do - just write.

O.K.. here is how this thing started. I was advised today on another site (no names, no pack-drill) that a rhyme I used was not a legitimate rhyme. The words in question were "succumbs/comes". I was advised on good authority that because the rhyme syllable - "cumbs" is the same sound as "comes" - then the rhyme is faulty, and should be replaced.

And I have heard this argument being used on TDE a number of times also.

But if "succumbs/comes" is incorrect, then surely "delight/light" would be another incorrect pairing, on the same principle. And yet here are examples of just this use in Spenser's Faerie Queene:


And euery of them stroue, with most delights,
Him to aggrate, and greatest pleasures shew;
Some framd faire lookes, glancing like euening lights,

FQ, II, v.33

Or greedily depasturing delight;
And oft inclining downe with kisses light,

FQ, II, xii.73.

And her faire eyes sweet smyling in delight,
Moystened their fierie beames, with which she thrild
Fraile harts, yet quenched not; like starry light

FQ, II. xii. 78.

Coyly rebutted his embracement light;
Yet still with gentle countenaunce retained,
Enough to hold a foole in vaine delight:

FQ, III. viii. 10

As those same plumes, so seemd he vaine and light,
That by his gate might easily appeare;
For still he far'd as dauncing in delight,

FQ, III. xii. 8.

That any little blow on her did light,
Then would he laugh aloud, and gather great delight.

FQ, IV. vii. 26.

But ah she giuen is to vaine delight,
And eke too loose of life, and eke of loue too light.

FQ, IV. viii. 49.


The royall banquets, and the rare delights
Were worke fit for an Herauld, not for me:
But for so much as to my lot here lights,

FQ, V. iii. 3.

That he so rudely did vppon them light,
And troubled had their quiet loues delight.

FQ, VI. iii. 21.


All I am asking is why can't I enjoy the same freedom in rhyming that Spenser (and Shakespeare and many others) enjoyed?




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Mark Allinson

[Janet Kenny]

Mark, use whatever you want in a convincing manner and if you're strongly convinced despite kneejerk negative responses (as opposed to sincere thoughtful responses)--then the olde Scottish maxim: "They say. What say they? Let them say." is the way to go
Janet

[A. E. Stallings]

Of course you can enjoy the same freedom--indeed, you can certainly get away with more than Shakespeare can!

"Rules"--observe them or break them--do shift over time. How Shakespeare uses rime will not necessarily tell you about how it has been used in the intervening centuries. For instance, in early rime in English only the last syllable would count, regardless of word accent. So that "river" and "never" are perfect rather than slant rhymes. And many rimes that are slant to us (care/are; prove/move) were probably perfect to speakers with an earlier, regional, or pre-vowel-shift vowel pronunciation. Your point would be better served by finding examples from Yeats or Tennyson or Auden, for instance, than by these very early ones. (And some of these, as has been pointed out, are not identities--ill/fill, call/all are just rimes.)

And has also been pointed out, the key is how you do it. To our ears, generally, an identity will not be as interesting as a rime, particularly in a shorter poem, unless it is being used to deliberate repetitive effect (as with Justice). What might look like freedom to one person might look like laziness to another.

Of course, many great poets do make use of it. Cavafy in particular uses rime riche to dazzling effect. And as Greek is extremely rime-friendly, as opposed to English, this is out of choice rather than any necessity. He has to go out of his way NOT to rime.

Sometimes this board does seem unhealthily obsessed with "rules"--what's allowed (by whom?) Partly that is because a lot of people come here without much background and are looking to learn. Fair enough. No point in using metrical substitions if you can't yet write a regular ip line. And it is the nature of workshops that if a competent poem is put on the boards, folks will tend to focus on small nits to offer constructive criticism. But there is no reason you have to agree with it. A poet can get away with whatever he can get away with.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Mark,

Succumbs can be pronounced such that the second syllable is comes, in which case it is indeed a repetion of the same sound. The same as I/eye is also the same sound.

However, as Spenser shows in your example, repeating a sound can be done if you feel like it. Though that said, it may be as popular as inversions.

The trick with both such is to make them look purposeful, rather than lazy.

"Light" is a portentous word. So is "Will." This helps.

With succumbs, however, you can get a perfect rhyme with becomes, at least with certain pronunciations of each word.

[Mark Allinson]

My God! Is it just my old Mac, or are the little fidget wheels on the net grinding very slowly tonight. I went off and had a meal while that page was loading!
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Yes, Janet.

Sage advice. And usually I do follow my own rules. But I am intrigued by this idea of the illegitimacy of "identity" in rhyme. I would never follow this rule myself, but I wonder how many others have been told to go away to fix things that aren't necessarily broken.

Ah, Alicia!

I just saw your post.

Again, very welcome sage advice. Thank you for coming in.

You say - "For instance, in early rime in English only the last syllable would count, regardless of word accent. So that "river" and "never" are perfect rather than slant rhymes."

I must be a throw-back (or maybe I have been too long in the 17th C.) but I do that all the time, rhyming on the last syllable, and not intending them to be slants. For instance, in a recent thing I used "elements" with "filaments" and "nutrients" with "solvents".

Now, I don't mind at all if readers say - "well, I don't like that sort of thing", but it does wrankle a bit when you are told - "well, this is simply wrong - fix it." It is when prevailing trends in taste become reified into unbreakable "laws" that I feel uncomfortable.

Thaks Janet, thanks Alicia.

Thanks Kevin.



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Mark Allinson