[jasonhuff]

David,

Good to see you here. I've been away from my computer for a while, so all the great questions I had have already been asked. In my effort to learn meter I've started reading Western Wind, which I have to say is a great book. I really don't have a question. I just wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying Western Wind, especially chapters 7 and 8, which are a lot of fun to read out loud. In all this work of trying to understand meter, I had sort of forgotten how much fun language is. And those two chapters reminded me of how much I like words and their sounds.

Thanks.
jason

[David Mason]

Jason,
The pleasure you take in the book is due entirely to John Nims. I just did some windowdressing here and there in the book. In the scansion sections, though, be aware that you'll find a typo or two. I was teaching five classes and writing an instructor's manual from scratch and proof-reading WW4 all in one semester, and I'm afraid some mistakes got through. The manual is riddled with em, but luckily most people don't read those things.

[jasonhuff]

David,

I finished all but the anthology part of Western Wind. Great book. I’m sorry to hear about Nims. I wish I could tell him myself how much I enjoyed it. It didn’t seem stuffy like a textbook. Really, a joy to read. Chapter 13, Common Sense, Uncommon Sense, was a joy to read. I even laughed aloud a couple of times. This and the Chapters on the sound of English are my favorites. I think this book has helped me in many ways. I’m glad to hear that you are going to carry it on.

There was a nursery rhyme in there:

There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile,
He found a crooked sixpence against a crooked stile;
He bought a crooked cat, which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together in a little crooked house.

I hadn’t heard this one before. I liked it. Do you know about when it was written?

And I found these in there as well:

“The function of mind in poetry is worth stressing because there are readers who think poets work better when they turn their mind off and let imagination and emotion take over. Imagination and emotion are necessary sources of poetry, but few good poets would agree that they ought to be in charge.”

“I think my poems come immediately out of the sensuous and emotional experiences I have, but I must say I cannot sympathize with these cries from the heart that are informed by nothing except, you know, needle or knife, or whatever it is. I believe one should be able to control and manipulate experiences, even the most terrifying, like madness, like being tortured...and should be able to manipulate these experiences with an informed and intelligent mind.”
–Sylvia Plath

All too true, and I think that when people show up thinking that poetry is simply an outpouring of emotion, we could show them these quotes. Maybe that would help them to understand that there is craft behind it. Especially the Plath quote, since she is known more for her emotional output in her poems. I know I used to think it was all ‘from the soul’ but I understand now that it is more than inspiration. Who said 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration?

Anyway, just trying to tell you how much I’ve enjoyed this book. That’s three for three. I think it is safe to say I’ll buy any book that you’ve written or edited.

And I'm going to start on Corn's _The Poem's Heartbeat_ which I've been warned is inaccurate in places. I have it, so I'm going to read it (next is the Fussell book and finally Steele's _All's the Fun_). Does anyone have any warnings or things to watch out for?
jason

[David Mason]

Jason,
I'm delighted you liked the book, and have printed out this line to keep track of your comments when I do the revision for 2004. "There Was a Crooked Man" appears in the Annotated Mother Goose in the Chapter on Father Goose, with a note suggesting that it might date back even to the 17th Century. Mother Goose is an anthology of anthologies, collecting versions of folk poems and some manufactured folk poems over a long period of time. There are multiple authors, including "Anonymous," the author of the poem in question as far as I know.

The Plath quote is sad when you know how the story comes out in the end. The remark about inspiration and perspiration is, if I'm not mistaken, Henry Ford's definition of genius--or was it Edison's. I'm fairly sure it was Ford, though he was far less a genius than Edison.

Corn's prosody is good, though it needs more examples to make its points clear. The best prosody in your list is the one by Tim Steele, which may well be the best one in print. Tim's only fault is hardly a fault--just that he's so thorough and gives so many examples that you'll sometimes feel like skipping a bit. Fussell's has some glaring errors. He's so steeped in 18th Cent iambic verse that he mistakes part 3 of Auden's Yeats elegy as iambic verse with trochaic substitutions, rather than trochaic verse with iambic substitutions. And his inability to appreciate some Victorians on both sides of the ocean is, in my view, an impoverishment.

Let me know what you think.

[RCL]

I'll second the caveat on Fussell. Just re-read the first 25 pages or so and he makes many scanning errors, doesn't seem to have and ear at all for relative stress. He's better on how specific forms imply meaning through traditional associations. For meter, focus on Steele.

------------------
Ralph

[This message has been edited by RCL (edited January 12, 2002).]

[David Mason]

Symphony.

[jasonhuff]

From Mother Goose? Perhaps if my parents had read to me as a child I would have known where it came from. To be honest, I'm not familiar with much from Mother Goose.

I agree with you about the Plath quote being sad. I suppose that is why I was surprised to have seen her say something like that. Doesn't fit into the perception I had of her. Well, eventually I'll pick up a good biography of her.

I know that the Steele book is supposed to be the best, or one of the best, books out there. But I was given the impression that it was real difficult and that I'd do better by working my way up to it. So, should I skip Corn and Fussell? I have heard over and over about Fussell's prejudices in poetry. I also have Gross and McDowell's Sound and Form in Modern Poetry. How is it?

jason

[Roger Slater]

I have to disagree with Dave Mason in one respect. I found the Steele book engaging from start to finish, and I was never tempted to skip a word. It was also a surprisingly quick read, one you can march right through at a pretty good pace if you have (as you do) an already developed and experienced ear for meter. I'd advance this book to the head of the list, if I were you.

[David Mason]

I take Roger's point and would also advance Steele to the top of the list. But with one caveat: students often ask me what they can get away without reading, and my answer is always the same: nothing. Read em all.

[nyctom]

I liked the Corn although Mike Juster says there are errors of some kind in them and it should have a caveat emptor warning label. I thoroughly disliked the Mary Oliver "Rules for the Dance." I dip into Steele--I still have yet to sit down and read it through from page one. I find it dense--which means it will prove useful for years. It is certainly thorough.

But the best advice I have gotten here still holds true: read the poems. Clap the beats. Memorize (ok ok, I am not so good myself on the last one since I will admit I am a lazy bones, though some of it is seeping in, like EA Robinson, from the sheer repetition of rereading). Ain't nothing like the real thing baby. It is what I found most helpful. I am trying now to write in dactyls and anapests, so I am reading many, many light verses. Anyone have any suggestions?