[Terry McDermott]

well not really suck.
I'm wondering if there's ever been thought to creating a forum for poems that the writer has become blocked on but wants to continue. A forum for some fresh ideas and perspectives when the poem is in trouble and the poet realizes it but can't figure out what to do. So the crits wouldn't be crits as much fresh directions or angles on how to fix a poem on life support.

Or could a person just add a disclaimer when posting a poem.

Terry

[Maryann Corbett]

I've used the disclaimer approach, though I find it's much easier for people to say what puts them off about a piece than to offer a completely fresh perspective. I've never seen anyone say outright, "I'm blocked; please give me some completely new ideas," but there's no rule against it.

It does ask for a larger creative "gift" than most on-board critique, IMO. And since the poet would need time to sort out the ideas and couldn't act on them all, it wouldn't lend itself to the model of fairly quick revision that some critters like to see (thought others are more patient).

But why not try it?

[Michael Cantor]

It's an intriguing thought. I have any number of half-finished pieces where I thought the idea was good, but what came out was dismal, and they're in such bad shape that I normally wouldn't post them here, even with a disclaimer.

If we go ahaead with this - and it could be interesting - I would argue for a separate Forum, like Fiction or Translations - where it would be understood that the poem would go up accompanied by an explanation from the writer, up front, as to what he/she was trying to do, and the problems encountered. It would be very different from our normal Forums in that the poet would be explaining from the start - normally we try to discourage that, to get a "cleaner" reading - and I would assume that response would be more "essay" type, rather than lists of nits.

I don't think we should encourage this approach in the existing Forums, because it could easily lead to a bastardization of the posting and critting process. We'd see too many lengthy explications before relatively finished poems, too many objections to crits because the reader didn't understand that this was a "problem" piece, there could be confusion and the original function of the Forum could diminish.

Met and non-Met could be combined on the new Intensive Care Forum (okay, be positive if you must and call it Fresh Start), and maybe a three or six month trial period before committing to it should be considered. Another concern is that some of our "gotta post a new poem every week or I'll drown" brethren will use this Forum as a safety valve they don't have anything decent available on Day Seven. Mods might consider limits such as (a) only one poem every two weeks in Intensive Care, and (b) posts here count towards the one-a-week rule. And I would push for a rule that only established members (100 or even 250 total posts) could post for critique in Intensive Care. (My concern is that it doesn't turn into a Beginner's Magnet.)

[Janice D. Soderling]

You know what, friends. I think this is a bad idea. Sometime you just have to know when to leave it and move on.

I see this as a lowering of standards to have a special forum "Poems that Suck". (I love the title though.)

Think about it.

I feel it, a poem is there somewhere, floating around in my head, pls tell me what I am trying to say, I really want to say it.

Sleeping bodies turn on tired mattresses.
Outside, scavenger flies begin to gorge
on scraps of fast food, dog dung,
dead moths.

God, an arrogant waiter
in an empty restaurant,
hands over a fly-specked menu
written with curlicued letters
in a fancier language than mine.

old crumb on cold floor
sunbeam falls through window
ant exits darkness,

[Marion Shore]

Janice,
I don't think the poem sucks. Meaningless, pretentious, inane chopped prose! What more can we ask? Seems to me any number of premiere literary mags would be glad to publish it.

[Michael Cantor]

Well, Janet, that's why I suggested a very high barrier - as many as 250 posts - and a once every two weeks max to weed out the utter crap (although I can think of more than one on-line workshop where at least some participants might praise the one you just posted - love your images - brilliant!) - but I also think that a poem can be essentially well written, not drivel, and yet a failure. Very often this happens because the poet has various segments that resonate independently, but no sense of direction, and no clear direction - and wnat emerges consequently is artificial and forced. A clear viewpoint and some restructuring can make a huge difference. I know I'm personalizing, but I've got several that I wouldn't post here because they're not coming together, and they're forced and self-conscious - but an Intensive Care Unit (I think that works better as a Forum title than Poems that Suck) might help, as long as the situation was understood up front.

[Skip Dewahl]

Originally Posted by Janice D. Soderling

You know what, friends. I think this is a bad idea. Sometime you just have to know when to leave it and move on.

I see this as a lowering of standards to have a special forum "Poems that Suck". (I love the title though.)

Think about it.

feel it, a poem is there somewhere, floating around in my head, pls tell me what I am trying to say, I really want to say it.

"Sleeping bodies turn on tired mattresses.
Outside, scavenger flies begin to gorge
on scraps of fast food, dog dung,
dead moths.

God, an arrogant waiter
in an empty restaurant,
hands over a fly-specked menu
written with curlicued letters
in a fancier language than mine.

old crumb on cold floor
sunbeam falls through window
ant exits darkness,"

Janice, this is a good unpretentious effort. What's it called, "Dream at Daybreak", or some such?

[Orwn Acra]

Why? Why would we need this? Just post your bad poem, receive negative crits (or possibly good ones), suck it up, and move on. An Intensive Care forum is basically a I'm Afraid People Will Think I'm a Bad Poet So I'm Going to Post This Bad Poem Here Which Everyone Should Consider Separate from My Real Work forum.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Cross-posted with Orwn.

Marion, thank you for your encouragement. I can always count on you to recognize when a bad poem is good. Why did that fun thread have to end?

Michael. I'm Janice. You usually say such smart things, and I usually understand immediately how smart they are, so I am perplexed why I don't get the wisdom of what you are saying now. Besides which I am not very good at math and I am wondering which Moderator Designate is going to keep track of eligibility and infractions. But don't let me discourage you, on second thought, do let me discourage you.

Skip. Good thinking and I will keep Dream at Daybreak in mind as an alternative title (or possibly Daybreak Dream, or Dreamday Break.

Actually I was thinking about calling it Flarf Barf.

[John Riley]

I think the difference is that "bad" poems tend to get the stuffing knocked out of them in the current forums, and a poem in this forum would be looking to be stuffed.

John