[Roger Slater]

CHILDREN'S BAKEOFF/WORKSHOP

It's time for the first ever Children's Poetry Bakeoff/Workshop. I am pleased to be the host of this inaugural event, but even more pleased to announce that our Distinguished Guest will be the phenomonally gifted and prolific children's poet, J. Patrick Lewis. Pat has published over 65 books of children's poetry, and the mind-boggling diversity of his work makes it impossible to do it justice in brief introductory remarks. The common element in all his work is a perfect mixture of craft, wit and intelligence, qualities found in his "silliest" poems for the youngest readers as well as in his weightier poems for young adults. Pat's work exemplifies Auden's famous remark that "while there are some good poems which are only for adults, because they pre-suppose adult experience in their readers, there are no good poems which are only for children."

Procedures and Guidelines

E-mail up to forty lines of children's poetry to me for inclusion in the event. Please send the poems in the body of an email to rs@bookbuzz.com by March 5, and use the word "bakeoff" in the subject line. The poems can be published or unpublished. You can send as many poems as you like, but the total lines you submit should not exceed forty. I haven't limited the total number of poems because good children's poems are often short and simple, and I didn't want to set up poem quotas that would discourage people from sending in such poems in favor of their longer and more sophisticated efforts. With total line limits instead of total poem limits, I'm hoping we will see a greater diversity of poems.

If you like, you should also feel free to group more than one poem in a single entry. For example, if you have five children's riddles that are technically separate poems, you may choose to submit them as a single entry to the Bakeoff. If there is a vote, people would vote on those five poems as a group, rather than individually. I would encourage people to do that if they have poems that seem that they might go together, even if only loosely.

Pat has asked me to screen the poems for him if we end up with a large pool of submissions, as I hope will be the case. I don't suppose I need to say much on the subject of my biases when it comes to children's poetry, since I suspect that they are shared by most of the people here. My favorite children's poets are J. Patrick Lewis, Richard Wilbur, X.J. Kennedy, Shel Silverstein, A.A. Milne, Lewis Carroll, and the Browning who wrote "The Pied Piper of Hamlein," which is tied in my mind with "Horton Hears a Who" as the best rhyming children's story ever written. I totally welcome poems that are merely funny or silly, but if you can sneak in some sophistication along with the playfulness, so much the better. If there's poop in your poem, it better be there for a good reason and not just because the word is guaranteed to make a child giggle. (Remember, "there are no good poems which are only for children," and I would add that the hard part is appealing to adults. Kids are relatively easy.)

You should also know that I may (or may not) be inviting entries from a handful of people who are not regular members or participants at the Sphere. For present purposes, Alex has waived the fifteen-post requirement. Whether or not I do will depend in part on the response we get from our regular members. I don't actually know how many of you write children's poetry, but if I'm flooded with quality poems by our membership, I will be less inclined to invite others.

I don't know yet how many poems Pat will comment on or that I'll post every day. That decision will be made after the submissions are in and we know how many we have, how long they are, and how much discussion they are likely to engender. I imagine we'll post at least the usual 10-12, but it's also possible the number will be higher.

I've called this a Bakeoff/Workshop since it's not clear yet whether we'll vote on "winners" or not. I'd like to have a vote, just for fun, but the likely diversity of entries could make it difficuilt to compare poems. How can one meaningfully compare an excellent four-line poem for toddlers with an excellent 16-line poem for twelve year olds?

One final note, for those who care. We will be using codes in each entry to avoid search engines, and we will not include actual poem titles in the subject fields.

Thanks! I look forward to receiving your submissions.

[Petra Norr]

You should also know that I may (or may not) be inviting entries from a handful of people who are not regular members or participants at the Sphere. For present purposes, Alex has waived the fifteen-post requirement. Whether or not I do will depend in part on the response we get from our regular members. I don't actually know how many of you write children's poetry, but if I'm flooded with quality poems by our membership, I will be less inclined to invite others.

That's such a turn-off. I was interested in this event, but not now.
I want to add this (I want to express my own opinion, and that's all it is): I don't think it's fair to participants to be so vague about the rules. If, now, you want to invite people from outside of the Sphere to submit, then it would be better to tell all participants in advance that, for example, you have 9 slots open for regular Erato members and 3 open for outsiders. And if the outsiders don't come through with their submissions, you can pick the rest from the Erato-member offerings.
But... I personally don't think that the outsider-submissions should be part of the competition at all. Why not have them be part of an open-thread discussion preceding the event?
--
And now I'm adding this: If you conduct the bake-off in the way you've spelled out, Bob, in the long run it is no different from the Short Poem Bake-off which upset so many people, including you. In that Bake-off, our submissions were apparently judged as not being good enough to be able to pick the usual 10-12 poems from them; instead 6 (or 8?) poems were posted. And that is what could happen in the Children's Bake-off, as I see it. If our submissions aren't good enough, then outsiders will be invited in. But, as you said yourself during the Short Poem Bake-off, Bob, there is always something to discuss about the poems submitted; there are good sides and bad to all of them, and it's unfair and unreasonable to pick fewer submissions than planned simply because they're judged unworthy to be posted.
Elitism sucks.

[Roger Slater]

Sorry you feel that way, Petra. The reason for this was simply that I have no idea how many folks here write children's poetry or will be interested in submitting, and I would like to be able to post lots and lots of poems. My concern was that not enough existing members write children's poetry or wish to share it, since, after all, we haven't seen very much children's poetry get posted here over the years. It's not like a sonnet bakeoff, where we know that dozens or even hundreds of members have sonnets they are eager to submit.

There will be a definite and strong preference for the work of existing members, and I anticipate no more than the smallest handful, if indeed that much, of work by people who are not members. These non-members (or people who once registered long ago but have never been active) are people I know and would hope to draw into our community because I think they would fit here in the long term and we'd all be happy to have them join us. I assure you, though, that this will still be an overwhelmingly Spherical event, even if some furriners sneak in.

PS-
I cross-posted with your PS. I'm not sure elitism sucks, but I'll admit it's not for everyone.

[Petra Norr]

. I imagine we'll post at least the usual 10-12, but it's also possible the number will be higher.

I certainly think it would be better if the 10-12 poems posted came from the submissions pile from regular Erato members, and if you then want to post poems from outsiders whom you've invited, then you can do so by increasing the number of poems posted. But the 10-12 poems from Erato members is fair and in order. I'm also quite sure you will get more than that number from Erato members.
But because this whole thing has made me grumpy, let me just say that your whole set-up is hogwash and consequently I'm washing my hands of this Children's Bake-off and not having anything to do with it.

[Roger Slater]

I don't disagree, Petra.

[Alex Pepple]

Petra,

I see your points and can understand where you're coming from. However, I believe that Roger's plans and intentions have no elitist calculation behind them other than the success of the event in light of how little children poetry is written and posted at the Sphere. He's simply trying here to make sure there is enough children poetry available to carry the event through.

And it has nothing to do with a lack of confidence in the submission of members here versus those ... ahem ... outsiders-invaders!

Cheers,
...Alex

[Petra Norr]

Hi Alex
I suppose it was unfair of me to use the word "elitism" (I do apologize for it). But I have a hard time picturing that Bob will get less than 12 submissions from Erato members. The Short Poem Bake-off got all of 80 submissions (!), and the latest Sonnet Bake-off got around 50, I believe. The smallest number of submissions goes to the Translation Bake-off, but even in the last Bake-off there were 17 submissions.
I can see the point of trying to get more people to Erato, people who like to write children's poetry and are good at it. But it still doesn't seem fair towards members of Erato to have the "outsiders" take one of those 10-12 slots. It makes more sense to me if 10-12 Erato members get their poems posted and additional slots are given to outsiders.
----
I don't agree with Bob's policy, but I've said what I have to say and I wish him luck with the event.

[Alex Pepple]

Hi Petra,

Not to put words in Roger's mouth, but I believe his announcement takes into account the possibility of greater participation by Sphereans, for instance in this passage, from his announcement (emphasis mine) -- " I imagine we'll post at least the usual 10-12, but it's also possible the number will be higher."

So what I see is our host planning for all eventualities for this first-time event -- both for the lackluster or the abundant turnout.

Cheers,
...Alex

[John Whitworth]

I feel like adding that Sphereans might like to look at work they have which they THOUGHT was for adults (and is) but might be for children too. I have poems in my last two books and the one that is to come which have been SOLD (£50 is the usual whack) to those ubiquitous anthologists of children's poetry we have over here. Come to that I've just written a poem which could, I now see, be classified as a children's poem. How old, by the way, are children these days. Can they be twelve or is that a young person?

[Cyn Neely]

well I guess I can see Petra's point of view. Why invite outsiders (a terrible word - but you know what I mean) to an Eratosphere event? I don't see the need. Let it instead be a challenge to us to come up with enough children's poems to make the contest go forward. If there are not enough, then do something else with the guest's "appearance". If we can't come up with anything worthwhile then let him show us how it's done. It does not have to be a write off (pun intended). We can learn something and we can be challenged. I hope we all rise to the challenge - good or bad.
In my probably uninvited and unneeded opinion, this should be a contest for members, and we should either rise to the challenge or ,if not, be shown what it *could* be all about by our guest and host posting poems (perhaps from those you would consider as "invitees") to educate us, but don't make it a contest at that point. Certainly the guest would still have a ton of input and this should still serve a useful function.
JMO
Cyn