So you're saying that women in the West need to hide their nipples because some guys get instant hard-ons at the sight? What about the guys who have a thing for legs or butts or eyes or hair? Wouldn't it be better to just hide women under tablecloths to avoid even the slightest chance of an unwanted hard-on? Except, oh damn, what about the gay guys? Shouldn't we drape the men in tablecloths too, to keep them from getting turned on?

And what do we do then about the people who are linen fetishists who get turned on by all those hot sexy tablecloths?

I'm sorry, dress codes are all cultural constructs. You only have to pull open an old issue of National Geographic to realize that you can have a society with women without tops that is not a nonstop orgy.

Originally posted by Kevin Andrew Murphy:

"You only have to pull open an old issue of National Geographic to realize that you can have a society with women without tops that is not a nonstop orgy."

Yeah, and they were in BARBER SHOPS, along with Sports Afield and The Police Gazette.

I'm puzzled why, aside from Janet Jackson's, other humans of African descent, such as those on The Discovery Channel, are shown bare-breasted, whereas Caucasian women's breast get pixilated or blurred. Is there something wrong with honkey breasts?

I may have digressed.

Bob

Originally posted by Dan Halberstein:

"It is also illegal for those women who cannot show their faces in many Islamist societies, to show their nipples (if you are confused on that subject.)"

"After all, Mr. newly found backbone, the enforced veil is a symptom of the same underlying problem, as the death-for-adultery stance."

Dan, these inferred and direct ad hominem attacks undermine your intricate arguments. They make you sound like a pissed-off, emotional debater rather than a cool logician.

"I think we've seen what happens to happily concocted dreams of regime change. However painful it may be to watch, I think these nations must themselves come to the conclusion that modernization's benefits outweigh its pitfalls."

I agree; however, our current administration sees them as a source of oil first, not as potentially modern democracies.

"But I think it's the voices of Muslims themselves which will eventually be the difference in these nations (as they were in Turkey.)"

Yes, I should hope so. There's there there, and they own it.

"The female nipple's "tabooness" in the West, is due to the fact that it can signify sexual receptivity, and arouses biologically (not culturally) determined reactions."

I've fished on nude beaches on Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard without being aroused, and I didn't notice tumescence in any male members of the sunbathing groups.

"All manner of social awkwardness is thus avoided by public display of same...."

This sounds like something lifted from a tract. The first warm day of spring in Boston, when "all manner" of residents peel off their winter layers, is a day of joy. The young men look strong, the young women beautiful. It's a blooming celebration.

Shameless O'Clawson

Wow, you still get seasons over there. We have increasingly mild winters here, and a large youthful population, most of whom go about all year wearing as little as possible. Celebratoty, perhaps, when the weather's warm, but in mid-winter, on coldish evenings, all that exposed goospimply skin looks too uncomfortable to bloom.



[This message has been edited by Mark Granier (edited September 17, 2006).]

I have no enlightening statistics at my disposal. I do think the paucity of books translated into Arabic is worrying. However, I wonder if there is something else going on that is not picked up in the statistics. My mother-in-law is from Jerusalem and grew up in Cairo and Beirut. She speaks Arabic, French, and English fluently. At least for Lebanon, this trilingualism is far from uncommon. Most of the novels she reads are in English or French, not in Arabic. We were discussing Naguib Mahfouz, the Egyptian novelist, the other day because I had just bought the first volume in his Cairo trilogy. She asked, "why didn't you just borrow my copy?" I was a bit surprised that she would read an Arabic author in English -- it is not as if she doesn't use Arabic anymore; she speaks it everyday with family and friends.

I gather from experiences with my in-laws, and what travels I've had in Turkey (admittedly not an Arab country), Jordan, and Lebanon, that reading books in European languages in the Middle East is much more common than any of us would expect. Of course this would only be true for the educated classes (though I wonder what percentage of Americans actually read many foreign authors). In either case it is probably the highly educated who read foreign authors. Many Americans (even many of the highly educated) speak only one language, and rely on translations. I would be quite willing to bet that the percentage of Arab college-graduates who are multilingual is much higher than the American figure. We are certainly missing a piece of the story by only focusing on what translated. We should also look at what books are sold in what countries, whether in translation or not.

Originally posted by Daniel Haar:

"... I wonder what percentage of Americans actually read many foreign authors..."

Daniel, given for whom we vote, I wonder how many Americans actually read.

When I was a kid and, for a stretch, took up Russian novelists, my mother asked me, "Are you becoming a Communist?"

Bob

RJ, first of all, you're right this time. There was no reason to throw in "Mr. newly found backbone," etc. in the post you quote from. I noted that I was as much of a "mixed bag" as K on the "when do we raise our voice/what options do we pursue" front; so there's no reason to ridicule him for basically being in the same basic ideological quandry as I find myself. Intervene to advance Western secularism? I don't think it works. Watch people stoned to death for adultery? I don't like how that sounds either.

Regarding literacy, I feel Daniel on the "something else going on" front. Just as we have very few translations happening in the U.S., but you couldn't spit in a real-time (U.S.) 'Spherean gathering without hitting someone who's reading (or writing) a translation, the friends of Arab descent who I have also read a good deal in languages other than Arabic.

I wonder how deep the "elite" runs in that neck of the woods -- a small elite would certainly square the stats with the anecdotal evidence. I certainly don't like the prospect of "proving" this one, personally. I find that various Semites get along when we get to the U.S., away from turmoil, and I think it's that experience of meeting and working with the "other" that makes that possible (and often pleasurable.) There's no joy in thinking another society is just without interest in other culture -- though the oft-mentioned "Arab Street" is often presented in that way, and certainly the extremists in many Muslim countries lend support to the "general" notion. The textbooks used by even the more moderate Arab regimes, point to the idea that this enlightened elite is either not running the show, or making some very ugly compromises if indeed they are.

However, I feel like I've waded in on this one way too deeply and quickly, probably seizing on a few stats and making a grand statement about them. I'll leave you guys to it for the moment.

Thanks,

Dan

Hey Shameless -- you said

"I've fished on nude beaches on Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard without being aroused, and I didn't notice tumescence in any male members of the sunbathing groups."

How well did you check those fishing rods?

Dick

By the way, great article in Sunday's Washington Post, about how Hezbollah miscalculated the impact of kidnapping Israeli soldiers, with some interesting scenes describing the players within Lebanon, prior to and during the events of this summer.

I mention this in hopes that a fairly objective retelling of events, is as impressive as the "report what you want it's true in some sense" theory of journalism we discussed briefly this summer.

I also feel like we're morally obligated on this thread to demonstrate the proper form for vitriolic rambling. Even the most impassioned partisans elsewhere seem to be coherent and relatively polite to one another, and this troubles me.

I kid because I love. To paraphrase the inimitable Chad Johnson, "Please don't ban me!"

Dan

Re: Nipples:

Teri Hatcher,one of the stars of desparate housewives, was asked on an Actor's Studio interview if they had any trouble with the censors. She said the network spent a fortune erasing her nipples. Being in the biz I imediately contacted the studio to ask if I could buy a pair off the cutting room floor and was told they were too radioactive to send through the mail.

Dick