[Mark Allinson]

Read and discuss:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinio..._brumer20.html

[Alder Ellis]

Re "rather than being condemned for the occasional, unintentional mishap, Israel should instead be praised for the prodigious efforts it makes to avoid civilian casualties" -- my initial reaction is, give me a fucking break. If there's a slight chance a Hezbollah person is in a particular house or neighborhood, it gets bombed, no matter who else lives there. Isn't that how it works?

"occasional, unintentional mishap" is even more shameless than "collatoral damage."

I love Israel, but I hate what they're doing. The ethical issue is the old one of descending to the level of one's adversaries. Hezbollah & Hamas are indeed terrorist organizations, deliberately trying to provoke Israel into a conscienceless conflict. And Israel is taking the bait way too eagerly.

[Quincy Lehr]

Mark,

Utter and complete reactionary claptrap, I'm afraid. Israel was never serious about a real Palestinian state--and the only surprise at the present pass I feel is that anyone's surprised--including the fact that some genuinely sinister fuckers are taking advantage of the manifest injustices visited on the Palestinians in order to pursue their own vicious agendas.

Quincy

[Dan Halberstein]

Israel's reason for going to war, the kidnapping and shelling of her citizenry, would more than suffice for any other nation. Israel's behavior once in battle is not perfect, but not as bad as, say, that of the U.S. or Britain.

In other words, measured against a dimensionless ethical ideal, as we insist on measuring Israel, her behavior is abhorrent. Measured against the standards of the "measurers," her behavior is good. Measured against the standards of her adversaries -- those brave bombers of bus stops and bar mitzvot -- her behaviour is excellent.

I know, I know. Israel -- unlike every nation on earth -- must be measured against the ideal, not against her adversaries. The ideal is peace, and therefore, Israel is monstrous.

When the U.S. or Britain leaflets an area of Iraq announcing the next air strike, drop me a line here.

I think a great deal of the hand-wringing has nothing to do with the conduct of the war. It has to do with proportionality. That is to say, Israel should play a coy game of trading petty strikes across borders (or better yet, just absorb such strikes), and pony up a few hundred convicted felons in exchange for soldiers or the bodies of soldiers abducted by irregulars on the other side.

My relatives in Haifa have front row tickets to Hezbollahpalooza. Were it your relatives in Cornwall or Albany taking the rocket barrages, I think you'd think twice about considering katyusha strikes "business as usual."

A government's first responsibility is protection of its citizens. Not protection of your ideals, not protection of your misconceptions, protection of its citizens. When they are under indiscriminate attack for years at a time, it is within that government's rights to protect its citizenry.

Now regarding the timing -- yep, it looks like Israel might have chosen to respond to the latest provocations, right when Iran is up for security council action.

Uh huh. But why was there such a handy provocation?

Because when you're dealing with Hamas and Hezbollah, there is always a provocation.

They seem intent on making a strike on their positions politically palateable, and seem to have no regard for the populations they hide among.

Why so much energy to exonnerate the terrorist?

[Daniel Haar]

Dan -- is having relatives in Beirut and Sidon a legitimate reason to be concerned with how this "Israelpalooza" (in your lingo) is conducted?

Hi, editing in to say that I made my response in haste -- not that I disagree with it, but it was not very complete. My wife has family in Lebanon who I am very concerned about. I do utterly condemn Hezbollah's actions and goals -- I think they harm not only Israel (which is bad) but also Lebanon. That said, I think if Israel really wanted to strengthen other Lebanese actors in relation to Hezbollah, then it is going about it in the wrong way. Oh and taking out roads and bridges and then ordering people to evacuate seems a little fishy to me. Finally, Dan, I hope your family is all okay and that this mess is resolved for the best (of everyone) soon.

[This message has been edited by Daniel Haar (edited July 21, 2006).]

[Dick Morgan]

Amen, Dan!

Proportional response is playing to a draw while one side reloads and tries to sucker punch the other side. WW 1 was a proportional war. Anyone who doesn't think Iran won't use the WMD when it gets it is a fool. I'm with Israel and I'm tired of the constant whining about the Palistinian "Victims". Hezbullah needs those "victims" to justify killing Jews. Does the Iranian and North Korean Armies goose-stepping in their parades remind anyone of anything?

Dick

[Mark Granier]

Hi Dan,

I certainly don't see Israel as some kind of pie-in-the-sky ideal. I find the idea of choosing sides, judging either Lebanese or Israelis en mass (especially from such a safe distance), utterly repulsive. But, after your last post, I wonder whether you have any Lebanese relatives or friends, or know any Israelis who are critical of their government and its response to the current crisis. I'd be curious as to what their thoughts might be.

[Quincy Lehr]

Look, no one here has said a word in defense of indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. But Dan's post recylcles some of the classic Zionist* arguments. Israel's being held to a higher standard than everyone else, and its critics are being unreasonable for more or less hypocritical or cynical reasons.

Not so. Just as I oppose American military intevention in foreign countries, so too do I oppose Israeli settlements and troop presence in the Occupied Territories. And were it not for Israel's continuing dispossession of the Palestinians (if anyone thinks the current "road map"--probably defunct at this point--is going to lead to a real Palestinian nation-state is simply deluded), the demagogic turdlingers in Hamas et al. would have fuck-all for a cause.

I don't really see a short-term solution here, but my sympathies are with the civilians being bombed (both Israeli and Lebanese) and those still, for all intents and purposes, suffering under an occupying power (the Palestinians).

Quincy

*"Zionist" is, by the way, a political characterization and not a synonym for "Jew."

[Clay Stockton]

I found this article to be, for the most part, a sane and fair examination of the issues at hand. There's some inflammatory rhetoric, to be sure, but the underlying reasoning seems sound to me.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060731&s=walzer073106

(registration required, but free)

--CS

[Dick Morgan]

Everytime Israel has given up land for peace they've been fucked. There never was a county called Palestein before 1947!
What's this Occupied Territories sympathies routine. What would you do, Quincy if rockets were raining down on your neighborhood? Send your kids out to play?

d/