Let's coin some creative new phrases to convey that it is highly unlikely that you will be using a critiquer's suggestions.

Bugsy

How about any reply that begins, "Well, I was chatting on the phone with Richard Wilbur the other day..."

jack,

ROTFLMAO!!! THAT one is so true, but it took me by surprise.

Variations, using a fictional name for the inept suggestor:

Dougsie,
Thanks for that. It gave me such a smile.

Dougsie,
Thank you for your suggestions. I really needed a good laugh.

Dougsie,
You're so silly.

Expanding on Jack's idea:

"Well ___________________ didn't think that when he (she) went over the poem with me."

Fill in the blank: Alicia, Dave, Sam, Marilyn, Kim . . .

The "I'm so sensitive/emotional" response:

"But I'm so head-over-heels in love with this poem!"*
http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/eek.gif

*you took me to task for that one, Bugsy, remember?

Dear Dougsie,

Thank you for the time you spent on your review of my villanelle, "Wolves Eat Fairies, Don't They?: A Villanelle." And no, I don't think you were being harsh at all. Please don't apologize, for that is what I am here for!

I am intrigued by your point about making the repetends consistent. I guess you mean they should use the same words in each one? http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/frown.gif I will have to think that over! I have seen many successful villanelles, which I have patterned this one after, and some of them have had consistent repetends. But perhaps you are familiar with the 20th-century poet Elizabeth Bishop? Well, if you aren't, you should check her out, she is very loose with form, not like that drunk Dylan Thomas. I think he's very over rated and I don't want my villanelle to be compared to his, so I have decided to vary my repetends, but I will have to think about your point. Thanks!

I also have to think about your point about "cliched" language. I am not arguing but I think that I am using the phrases you quoted "ironically." Except for the part you objected to which says "the proof is in the pudding," that is an allusion, maybe you didn't get it? http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif Oh well, can't please them all! I have thought about this a lot and I think one man's cliche is another man's classic and all of these are in the eye of the beholder. Thanks!

I think you make a good point about the meter, except it is not supposed to be iambic tetrameter like so many poems here, it is supposed to be loose dactyllic, because I am a big fan of the great ancient blind Greek poet Homer. Maybe you didn't get that either? http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif I will have to think about what you said about making the meter "detectable" because I've thought about it a lot and I have discovered that all art aspires to the condition of music. With that in mind, I am working on a revision which is more musical. Here is the new first stanza, I have made the new repetends bold:


' - - | ' - - | ' - - | ' - - | ' - -
' - - | ' - - | ' - - | ' - - | ' - -
' - - | ' - - | ' ' - | - ' | ' - -


I am trying to figure out how to get rid of the substitutions in L3, anyone have any ideas? http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/frown.gif Dougsie, if I figure out how to make a sound recording after the piano tuner comes by I will post it here and see what you think. Thanks again for your time!

Love,
Sheila Reseda


[This message has been edited by Clay Stockton (edited June 30, 2006).]

Well, Dougsie, as you know, this is a performance piece, so you really need to hear it spoken out loud, as well as see the props: graffiti-covered subway wall, broken toilet, etc. and hear the steel drum accompaniment.

*******

Well Dougsie, I think the allusion to Czar Ivan the Mediocre is pretty well-known, but of course you can always Google.

Dougsie, I appreciate your suggestion to change "the" to "a," and while I understand your reasoning, that would make for a different poem. Perhaps a better poem, but not the one I've written.

Also thanks for expressing the opinion that Chronicle of My Formative Years doesn't fit the sonnet form and that I should drop the couplet altogether. I have given some thought to your contention that I am trying to cover too much ground, but all of the traumatic experiences have a direct bearing on the poem and I can't think which of them I could afford to leave out. I believe most people can follow the logic and won't have any trouble figuring out the syntax in the lines:

potty-trained at half past three
wheeler turned over scraped my knee.

Again, I do appreciate your time and effort, Dougsie, and I will print out your comments and consider them carefully if I decide to revise. I should warn you that I revise very slowly, however, so I may not get around to posting the revision for a few months.

Marion,
Oh, yeah, you were so in love with that damn piece you were marion it!

Sorry. Guess that one only works once.

Another way to break the news: (again with a randomly selected fictitious name)


PugZ,
To explain my regard for your suggestions, I have made a chart of equivalent concepts. Column A contains persons or things, and Column B contains bodies to which they may seek admittance.

AXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXB

OilXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXWater

MosesXXXXXXXXXXXXXXPromised Land

CamelXXXXXXXXXXXXXXEye of a needle

Dr. JohnXXXXXXXXXXXXXCover of the Rolling
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXStone

Star JonesXXXXXXXXXXXAny ABC News job

Those past itsXXXXXXXXToyland
XXXXborders

Your suggestionsXXXXXXMy poem

Well, the first answer here skewers me, and I am rolling on the floor.

"Through my years in the Italian opera and my long friendship with Patrick White, I learned..."

or, "In a ouija board consultation with Wystan, I was advised..."

or, "I need this to stomp iambically."

or, "The theme requires that I end stop every line."

Dougsie - thanks for the detailed crit, and apologies for not getting back to you sooner, but I had to go to the market (I got some terrific shitake, and I'll saute that up in a light sesame oil with spinach from the garden, maybe some konbu flakes on top, and with it I think I'll do fresh trout grilled on lemon slices) but I agree that your idea of cutting the first two stanzas, leading with S5, and then redoing the villanelle as a sestina is not without merit. As a matter of fact, I played with a very similar approach on some of the earlier drafts (what real writers do is they really write, write, write, write - and then they rewrite) - a double sestina, actually, but in five-line tanka stanzas - and decided against it, but it was a coin toss. Poetry, as I have often pontificated, is a craft of compromises (which reminds me of an incident with this courtesan I met at a little geta shop in Nihonbashi, in 1932..) and my feeling is that if you're unhappy with the compromise I selected, we are all entitled to our opinions, and - parenthetically - if you don't like it, you can go and fuck yourself for all I care.

Thanks again to all for the feedback and suggestions. This thread demonstrates once again the value of the Sphere workshop, which would be even better if I didn't have to deal with so many idiots.





[This message has been edited by Michael Cantor (edited July 01, 2006).]

Quoi? Personne ne parle anglais ici.

Dougsie,

Thanks for your detailed critique of my poem. As I'm sure you'll agree, the phrase "a poem with zero promise" can be taken more than one way. I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.

epigone

A semi-serious side note. I recently workshopped a law review piece just before I was gonig to send it off. One of my colleagues, who tends to get up a head of steam in these settings, told me that she thought my 60-page article could best be improved if I deleted pages 1-34. I told her I didn't find that criticism constructive. It stopped her in her tracks, and it turned out that what she really wanted was for me to get to my thesis more quickly. Moving a paragraph from page 5 to page 2 did the trick. The piece was thereby markedly improved, and the friendship emerged stronger than ever.

PugZ,

I do appreciate your preference for perfect rhymes, but . . .

Emily

Dougsie

1. Thank you for your honest critique. I will certainly give it all the consideration it deserves.

2. Thank you for your honest critique. I will certainly spend as much time thinking about these suggestions as you obviously have.

3. Thank you for your honest critique. It's not often someone's willing to spend five seconds of their time telling me where I fucked up. I'm amazed you can type that fast!

Are 'b4' and 'ur' Egytpian words?

Thank you for that, Theodora.

Yes, I do realise that I am using “serene” as a noun here.

And yes, English is my first language.

Have a nice day, Theodora.

I think this belongs in Drills and Amusements--it's mine, do you hear?--so I'm moving it there.
Best,
David

I think I've seen this one before -- not sure where.

Dougsie,

I completely know what you mean about the ridiculous diction, the inept images, and the insurmountable ambiguities. The problem is that's actually how my narrator talks.

Jason

"DOUGSIE: Thank you for your critique."

In offering this "Fresh way to phrase..." an intention
to disregard a specific critique, I cast my eyes
heavenward and appeal for a punctuation mark that
denotes the existence of a pregnant pause.

Without that punctuation mark, how can the above response
be read correctly? The obvious intention of the writer
was to transmit the following:

DOUGSIE:
Thank you for your
{insert pregnant pause here}
critique.

-- Larry




[This message has been edited by Larry Powers (edited June 30, 2006).]

Dear Dougsie,

That would make S1 boring, don't you think?

That would make my narrator sound as immature and sociopathic as the one in your last poem, but thanks anyway.

The liquor store is closed, my wife emptied the last bottle into the toilet, and I'm broke. I'll get back to this asap.

My connection died and I'm going to sleep for a week. Will think about your suggestions meanwhile.

I ran your suggestion by my two-year-old son and he said "Poopie."

I ran your suggestion by my dog and she had puppies. BTW, is anyone interested in a sweet little cocker spaniel mix?

I sent the earlier version of this out and just heard that it won the Richard Wilbur Award. I shouldn't have posted this version for critique. Moderator, please delete immediately!

What you said was very meaningful. Unfortunately, my husband told me not to change a thing and if I do he'll throw me out. You're cute, but not that cute. Just forget what happened last week, ok?

Moderator, please lock this thread.


Terese

Dear Everyone,

Revision dutifully posted! I hope this will address the important concerns some of you raised. Sorry it took so long but my cat got sick this morning and I was down at the vet all day, and only had a few hours to do so much. You guys are great!

Michael Janitor, I think you are funny. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif This is a workshop isn't it, and what is workshop for except to improve with colleagues? And for your info I have a Bachelor In Arts in English from U.Mass-Amherst, you're neck of the woods. I am still waiting for the Dickinson to wear off, you too? LOL

Teresa Roe, I have tried to make the feminist angle more emphatic.

Henry Quincy, I have tried to make the meter better and the historical parallels more sharp.

Ms. Penny, I give you the respect you deserve because you are the only one who respected my poem for what it is and I love you for it! You have encouraged me to keep working on this so thank you especially!

Jim Puffery, what is an EfH and who are Tony, Dick, Sam, Dave, Aliki, Vince, Soc, and Wystan? I also object to your making fun of that blue-haired lady http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/frown.gif she sounds very nice. But despite all that I have taken your advice and made these longer lines though I don't think I am as bad as you say at the short ones. Short is sweet! PS I have tried to play up the religious angle. P.P.S. you misspelled LAUREATE

Cheryl Baylor, how cool - my grandfather was from Texas! Go Longhorns! Yes, I think I will check out PFFA - thank you!

Dougsie, I have tried to make the romance story come through more clearly. And to answer your question 36C you sly puppy. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif

Ray Pacman, I am so very sorry that you can't enjoy this. You know its funny I googled you and almost nothing came up. Do you get published much? http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif You should check out my chapbook, maybe you would enjoy that better. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif Lots of other critics thought this was worth keeping so I guess you will just have to disagree with them! http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif

Love (to most) http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif
Sheila Reseda

Wolves Eat Fairies, Don't They?: A Villanelle

(revision)


Fairies diminutive, fanciful, luminous, spangled, and gay,
Look out for dangers that lurk in the silent crepuscular wood:
Prick up your ear-points, beware the approach of the wolf-pack so gray.

Circle your ranks very tightly and pledge that you won't be their prey;
Screw up your courage and build for your families a fort 'neath a rood,
Fairies diminutive, fanciful, luminous, spangled, and gay!

Hide in the hollows of trunks when the wolves mount the hillock and bay:
Set up a sentry; the attack of the carnivores must be withstood:
Prick up your ear-points, beware the approach of the wolf-pack so gray.

Too long has midnight made dark the wood; fairies now long for the day
When their wee children can prance where the she-wolf is suckling her brood--
Fairies diminutive, fanciful, luminous, spangled, and gay!

Legions of chthonic barbarians cannot be suffered to stay
Here in the once-peaceful grove where the Lord of all fairies once stood!
Prick up your ear-points, beware the approach of the wolf-pack so gray.

Summon your magic with spells cast in dactyls and rhymed aba!
Conjure familiars to smite the wolves' negative attitude,
Fairies diminutive, fanciful, luminous, spangled, and gay!
Prick up your ear-points! Beware the approach of the wolf-pack . . . so . . . gray . . .


---------


Wolves Eat Fairies, Don't They?: A Villanelle

(original)

The wolves eat sheep.
They gorge on blood
While fairies sleep.

Quiet they creep,
As mute as mud--
The wolves eat sheep.

With nary a peep,
Cows chew their cud
While fairies sleep.

The wolves would reap
What shepherds sowed;
The wolves eat sheep.

The darkness deep
Helps wolves hide
While fairies sleep.

O fairies, weep,
For where is God?!?
The wolves eat sheep
While fairies sleep.



[This message has been edited by Clay Stockton (edited June 30, 2006).]

Clay, sweetie, I'm a little worried about you...

Are posts disappearing from this thread?! I have posted two that aren't here, and I thought Jason had a post under Clay's last one.

I had a short post disappear. It read

Thanks all of you for your heroic effort in hammering my double sestina into a sonnet. Unfortunately, as Alan prepared my seventh collection for publication, he cut it to a couplet. sadly, yr lariat

Tim,
I can vouch that your post was indeed on the thread. I seen it!

I had a post disappear here, too. It probably should have, though.

Although it does raise the question for me:

If an ad hominem falls in the woods on someone who never pays attention to anything anyone says anyway...oh nevermind.

System glitches: nobody's deleted anything.

Just to help find the glitches - it wasn't just new posts. I revised my old one (am I the only one nuts enough to constantly tweak his Drills & Frills posts?), and the revision disappeared (since replaced.)

Dougsie,

Judging by your critique your comparing my poem to a bunch of other, much older poems that you've read. Don't do that. The rigid expectations you bring are just so unhelpful to the beauty of this poem.

I don't know if you really understand your problem, so here's a poem that I think will shed some light:

Monkey po'

What did a poem ever try to do
that you seem to think it didn't?
Didn't you scan to the last line through,
hovering to the end suspent,
and getting there, to find you wouldn't
get your wish--what were you expecting?
You funny little monkey!

Jason

Dougsie,

The problem may be a demographic one-- I surmise from your location that you come from some remote Southern backwater. So possibly you lack the sophistication to understand the subtleties of my poem, "Yes, Virginia, there is an Antichrist", which would probably be clearer to someone with a more cosmopolitan background.

Please note, Mugsy, I don't mean to be critical--au contraire, your simplicity and naïveté are quite charming-- indeed one might say you are the Kelly Pickler of Eratosphere. Had any cala-maaaari lately? http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/wink.gif

Thank y'all. http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/smile.gif

Fuggup,
Please, you must take back your suggestions. I am a Native American, and were I to accept them and not reciprocate with a gift equally fine(which I never could), I would lose face.

Sincerely,
Lars Svenssen, Denmark

[This message has been edited by Lightning Bug (edited July 02, 2006).]

Doug on the sea,
thanks, it gave me
a simile.

I'm heels-over-head in love with Bob Dylan Thomas Mann's cliched language.

Dear Doug Z.,
The phrase "the proof is in the pudding" is a unique way to say a mathematician's work is verified by the dessert.
The comments regarding Homer are irrelevant; if he was Greek, he could have never met Jethro (who was living in Midian).

Deer Dug, See?
This is neither a performance piece nor a non-performance piece. Obviously you have not attained satori, it is a poem and a non-poem at the same time.

Dougsie, my Chronicle poem has no theological or political ax to grind: no sin, no tax.

PugZ, as "Dr. Robert" is to the Rolling Stones and as "Dr. John" is to the Beatles, so are all suggestions to all poems.

The theme requires that I end.
The theme requires that I stop.
The theme requires every line.

Poetry is a craft of co-promises and my feeling is that we are all entitled to our onions.

IF (me speak) THEN (only Fortran) ELSE (silence).

Because the poem has nothing to do with WWII aircraft, the phrase "a poem with zero promise" must be a typo for "a poem with Zorro promise."

Doug C,
"B4" is the fourth term of an infinite sequence of rational numbers converging to the irrational number "B"
"Ur" is the town that Abram and Sarai were from

Yes, I do realise that I am using “serene as a nun” here; but without that punctuation, Mark, how can the above response be read correctly?

L. Villain

PS: you misspelled "Lower Rate"

PPS: Moderator, please lock this liquor cabinet.


[This message has been edited by Robert Meyer (edited July 02, 2006).]

Dougsie

I think it was Horace who said that a poet shouldn't show a poem to the world until ten years after composing it. All the previous poems I have posted here are from the last millennium, and I rather regret having posted this one, which is of a very recent date. I'd be interested to hear if you are of the same mind about it come 2016.

Slippery

(reposted after the original disappeared)

Yes, Theodora, I do realise that L2 is ambiguous, but, not only do I not see this as a problem, it is something I spent a lot of time on, trying to get that line as ambiguous as I could. As you can see, the line now not only suggests that the pumpkin is blue in colour, but “blue” in the sense of being sad. And the anthimeria I employed in using “fart” as an adjective is also intentional, and helps to bring the kettle-drum into an interesting juxtaposition with the goat.

I hope my reasoning is clear, Theodora; but if not, I can try and express myself a little more succinctly: fuck off!

Carol, Clay, Bugsy, Terese, Jan, Jerry, Quincy, epigone, Janet, David, Marion, Michael, Tim, Mark, Jason, Katy, Duncan, and Susan--I can't thank you enough for your very helpful comments. Absolutely spot on! I'm now working on a revision to incorporate your great suggestions.

Theodora--Thanks for looking in.


[Edited to say: Oh, shoot--I just realized that these are supposed to be FRESH, i.e. NEW, and I've been on the receiving end of this one a few times.]

I'm in a bit of a rush John, bicycling furiously around the garden, etc, but I promise I'll return to think over your points.

Not defending ;) but I do sometimes worry about scholarly dismantling and conscientious analysis. One can't improve a bird by pulling its wings off. It's a living thing and so is a poem. That's true of all the arts of course.

I once worked with an infamous Lithuanian conductor. No names, no clues ;) He was very short and had a trick of absent-mindedly whittling away at his wooden leg with a pocket knife while he talked. Once he peered up at me with a twinkle in his eye and said, "Every work of art is a tremulous, dancing thing. The artist's challenge is to let it dance, to resist crippling it or strangling the life out of it." ;)

With great respect, I think that applies to my Kalgoorlie Kestrel. Air and feathers. A swoop rather than a coop. Flight not logic. But I’m trying to see it your way, honest.
;)





[This message has been edited by Henry Quince (edited July 02, 2006).]

Henry and Tim,
You boogers. Just wait--I'll get you yet ;)
-------------
I have incorporated your suggestions. I have changed the title and altered the meter from hexameter to dimeter.

My grovelling thanks to all of you for making this poem what it is today.

It has been accepted for publication by Strict and Upright. I couldn't have done it without your help.

Thank you so much. Your critique fills a much-needed gap in the literature.