[David Landrum]

An editorial in the latest New Criterion, "Deprogramming the MFA," p. 1, begins with reference to the line by Kingsley Amis, Much of what is wrong with the twentieth century could be summed up in the word "workshop." This line seems to get quoted a lot nowadays. I wonder what Spherians think about it. I know a many of us attend (or conduct) workshops, and Eratosphere itself is a workshop. Comments or reactions to Amis and to the whole matter of workshops?

[Rick Mullin]

Regarding the Amis quote, I think that an ironic joke has been taken seriously.

I get a lot out of Eratosphere--ie everything I would want to get out of an MFA. I'm getting old. I'm paying for other peoples' BAs and such. So I have to keep the burn rate down. The Sphere is a low cost, high risk option, which sounds about right.

I'm sure Amis was kidding.

RM

(again, I'm with the jokes...yes an MFA is an incomparable experience, albeit surrounded by the serious debate we see in New Criterion and elsewhere. My point is that this place is an education and that Amis must be kidding.)

[Janet Kenny]

One who is close to me says that workshops are places where people get on with their work, not get in the way of other people. He also says it's a noun not a verb.

I think we are so filled with guilt that we couldn't meet and exchange ideas about poetry without the earnest figleaf of "workshop".

It's a delight to be here and to meet all you gifted people and I am here for self-improvement and suffering.

Eratosphere is somewhere where poets can discuss poetry seriously.

[Maryann Corbett]

Maybe a little research about context is in order.

I just googled "Kingsley Amis" and "workshop" and near the top of the list was an Amazon review of the novel "Jake's Thing," (published 1978) which contains the quote in this form: ""If there's one word that sums up everything that's gone wrong since the war, it's 'Workshop.' After 'Youth,' that is." It's not spoken by Amis in propria persona, but by his character Jake, who is in a psychiatric encounter group for what we would now call erectile disfunction.

Did Amis have MFA programs in mind? No, because they barely existed* at the time and he was talking about something else entirely. The quote is simply an introductory-paragraph gimmick.

I'm still curious about the substance of the TNC article, though. I do think an actual program might have more rigor and completeness than what we do here, and I'd like to steal syllabi and book lists.*

*Having read the article, I stand slightly corrected: there were 35 in 1975.

*The article mostly laments uselessness, incestuousness, and oversupply.

[David Anthony]

That is a very good question, David.

I think Amis is really objecting to consensus, and I agree with him on that. In the business world I think workshops are mostly a waste of time, though I know many of my colleagues would disagree with me.

I place a high value on poetry workshops, being inexpert, and I have never workshopped a poem without it coming out better than it went in.

I read poems by Rhina or Alicia (for example) and think they do better without workshops, because they have expert knowledge and speak with a unique voice.

Then again, I read poems by Tim or Clive (for example) and see how even the best poets can improve by workshopping.

So I conclude the answer is there is no answer, and it all depends on folks.

Best regards,

David

[Janice D. Soderling]

Maryann said

and I'd like to steal syllabi and book lists.

Yes, me too, if you get any pls pass them on to me.

As Rick pointed out, not everyone can attend MFA at universities. Some are putting their children through school, some have to support a family. Some, like me and many others, live in a foreign country, and though I am a big-time consumer of university courses (being fortunate to live near one) it hs no MFA in creative writing in English. I wish I'd had access to Eratosphere when I was young, but better late than never.

As you all know, there are distance-learning CW courses in English nowadays, even MFAs. Also low residencies. I have several English-speaking friends who are taking advantage of such opportunities.

The advantage with a university course is that you follow a curriculum and learn in a structured manner--or you won't pass the exams. In a workshop it is up to the individual--to learn or not to learn.

Though workshopping one's own poems is a learning experience, it is equally valuable to follow along in the comments in the other threads. That is why, IMO, it is important use a terminology that gives everyone an opportunity respond on specifics. That is also why I find frivolous praise counterproductive. (I hope to goodness that doesn't trigger another etiquette debate, please let's avoid that.)

The advantages of participating at Eratosphere) includes contact with like-minded, access to other ways of thinking, and a focused discourse.

So my answer would be "yes", workshopping is an excellent alternative for learning. Now I shall take my soapbox and go pontificate elsewhere.

[Janet Kenny]

Janice,
Though workshopping one's own poems is a learning experience

You didn't really say that. You didn't!

Edited back. In fairness I agree with the sentiment that followed the above quote. I've learned more about poetry in the process of critting the poems of others than in any other experience on Eratosphere.
I do think that there is a general tendency to overvalue prolixity when critting. A single incisive sentence can be the most useful kind of crit. We are here to think about language and the dignity of words. When a thoughtful critic responds with brevity it often means that they have organised their thoughts and have no need of half a page.

Deserved praise is serious comment. Frivolous is in the eye of the beholder.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally Posted by Janet Kenny

Deserved praise is serious comment. Frivolous is in the eye of the beholder.

Sometimes it's the latter in the eye of every other critter reading it.

Which is why workshopping can be as irritating as it is helpful. I think it's also part of the reason why so many people quit workshopping after awhile.

For those who stick around it's major-frustrating because not only is it a waste of time it implies that everyone reading it is considered stupid enough to believe it's true. It may not be hard to convince the author of a poem that the praise is deserved but it's nowhere near as easy to convince the rest of us.

I wish people realized it's counterproductive. Not only does it not help the poet it hurts the critter. Reputations are eventually hard to live down and eventually nothing said gets taken seriously - good or bad.

[Janet Kenny]

Sometimes it's the latter in the eye of every other critter reading it.
We can't write for the uninitiated Lo. If they keep reading the penny will drop.

Which is why workshopping can be as irritating as it is helpful. I think it's also part of the reason why so many people quit workshopping after awhile.
They probably should.

For those who stick around it's major-frustrating because not only is it a waste of time it implies that everyone reading it is considered stupid enough to believe it's true. It may not be hard to convince the author of a poem that the praise is deserved but it's nowhere near as easy to convince the rest of us.
Never? Never true? Nothing good is EVER posted here?

I wish people realized it's counterproductive. Not only does it not help the poet it hurts the critter. Reputations are eventually hard to live down and eventually nothing said gets taken seriously - good or bad.

Rats!

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

What part of he latter didn't you understand, Janet? It's the uninitiated as you refer to them that suffer from reading the frivolous praise. They'll never learn to trust their own judgment when the "elders" are heaping praise on poems which do not deserve it.

And I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that I never thought anything good was posted here. I said, and I repeat, the latter (meaning, of course, the frivolous praise) was insulting and unbelievable.