[Peter Coghill]

As I like things looser than many of the denisons of these boards I thought I'd try to start a discussion on the effect/failure of a looser meter and slant rhyming. Rather than being disembodied here is a poem I admire to base any discussion around.

North-West Carol Ann Duffy

However it is we return to the water's edge
where the ferry grieves down by the Pier Head,
we do what we always did and get on board.
The city drifts out of reach. A huge silvery bird,
a kiss on the lip of the wind, follows our ship.
This is where we were young, the place no map
or heritage guide can reveal. Only an X on a wave
marks the spot, the flowers of litter a grave
for our ruined loves, unborn children, ghosts.
We look back at the skyline, wondering what we lost
in the hidden streets, in the rented rooms,
no more than punters now in a tourist boom.
Above our heads the gulls cry yeah yeah yeah.
Frets of light on the river. Tearful air.

Whether you call it a sonnet or not its basically pentameter
HowEv/er it IS/ we reTURN/ to the WAT/ er's EDGE/
except for L6, and L11 which read most naturally as 4 beats for me. The rhymes are also very rough in spots, especially not caring about plurals.

None of this bothers me and I find it an smooth read and though bordering on the sentimental staying the right side of that line. In fact the rougher meters/rhyme help keep it from being too sentimental.

[Maryann Corbett]

Thanks for this, Peter. It's an excellent poem, IMO, no matter how one scans it. The resonance in certain very ordinary, even ugly, places because we were young there--the idea always grabs us. The relationship between the litter on the water and the deadness of old dreams is wrenchingly sad.

It's interesting that I have no trouble with L6, whereas for me L7 has too many beats. I think the problem some people have with loose meter is a sense of niggling annoyance at not being able to tell how the poet was hearing in a line that seems off. If it's clearly meant to be IP, what was the poet stressing or not stressing to get IP out of that line? It's as if one spends too much time on that problem and so is distracted from other beauties.

[Peter Coghill]

about line 7, if it was being workshopped I'd advise deleting "heritage"

[Maryann Corbett]

I like the idea of a heritage guide, not just a guidebook to any kind of sights, so I feel we lose something if "heritage" is dropped. I'd drop "only," though I know that costs something too.

[Janet Kenny]

Peter,
One negative effect that posting on Eratosphere has had on my writing is a locking of my own writing into meter in a way I instinctively know to be too tight. When critting poems by others in a metrical workshop it is usual to expect a conventional use of meter. I particularly enjoy near rhyme but, like perfect rhyme, these depend on local pronunciation. Often what we intend as perfect rhymes are read as near rhymes by others.

I always respond well to your own use of loose meter.

I like the Duffy poem very much. The near rhymes all work easily in my head. The witty onomatopoeia of "yeah yeah yeah" is particularly nice.
This reads as pent to me without any effort.
Thanks for this discussion.
Janet



[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited May 10, 2007).]

[Marybeth Rua-Larsen]

I appreciate you bringing this up, Peter. I also have many questions about slant rhyme and "looser" meter, probably since I come from a more free verse background.

I have an awful time, especially, with slant rhyme. Someone will tell me that my slant rhyme is awful (speak/shriek was particularly disliked), but no one ever explains why. They just refer me to other poems/examples, and I'm not seeing the difference between good and bad. I love Duffy's poem. To me, she goes farther afield than I would with rhyme (board/bird). I tend to try to stay close to the vowel sound and play around with the consonants. I rarely shift the vowel (like Duffy) -- yet I like this poem and have no criticism of her rhyme choices.

Are there general guidelines for slant rhyme? The only one I've heard is that you can't have just one example of slant rhyme in a poem because then it looks like a mistake rather than a crafted choice. Anyone have more information or opinions?

Another great example, in my opinion, is Nemo's "Sonnet for Bill" that was in March's issue of Poetry. I keep studying that one. I like what he does with rhyme, though I couldn't articulate why his slant rhymes work -- it just seems right.

Any insights on this topic would be appreciated.

Marybeth

[Jerry Glenn Hartwig]

howEver it IS we reTURN to the WAter's EDGE
where the FERry grieves DOWN by the PIER head,
| | we DO what we ALways DID | | and GET on BOARD.
| | the CIty drifts OUT of REACH. | | a HUGE | | SILvery BIRD,
| | a KISS on the LIP of the WIND, | | FOLlows our SHIP.
| | THIS is WHERE we were YOUNG, | | the PLACE no MAP
or HERitage GUIDE can reVEAL.| | ONly an X on a WAVE
marks the SPOT, | | the FLOWers of LITter a GRAVE
for our RUined LOVES, | | UNborn CHILdren, | | GHOSTS.
we look BACK at the SKYline, | | WONdering WHAT we LOST
in the HIDden STREETS, | | in the RENTed ROOMS,
| | no MORE than PUNTers NOW in a TOURist BOOM.
| | aBOVE our HEADS the GULLS cry YEAH | | YEAH | | YEAH.
| | FRETS of LIGHT on the RIver. | |TEARful AIR.


While the slant rhymes work for me - I think full rhymes in couplets are generally too heavy-handed for my taste - the meter relies heavily on caesuras - mostly successfully I think - to make this anapestic. Accept the caesuras a unstressed syllables, but there are still a fair number of iambic subs.

where the FERry GRIEVES | | DOWN by the PIER head, (alt. scan)

'reveal' in L7 can also be pronounced: re-VE-al

Just one take.


[This message has been edited by Jerry Glenn Hartwig (edited May 11, 2007).]