[Janice D. Soderling]

Obviously, wants and wishes differ but I would like to throw out a question relevant for the less routined writers: What do you find most helpful in the critique received on your poem?

Mind you, I am not asking what you would most like to get, (praise, wouldn't we all!), but what kind of suggestions and pointers help you go back to review and revise.

Nor am I asking what you don't want to hear, because in truth, this is not a vanity site. (Which likely won't inhibit "I don't want to hear…".)

This question of useful and constructive critique struck me this morning when I was having my breakfast cuppa with Josephine Jacobsen (and if you don't know her, you should).

Josephine said to me:

The Minor Poet

The minor poet sits at meat
with danger smoldering in his eye,
to left, to right, his dicta fly,
impaling those who blot or botch:
should any dolt essay reply
his voice goes up another notch.

Attempts to qualify are doomed.
Who could object? Which would displease?
With finger raised, in tones that freeze
he checks his points: 1, 2, 3 4.
By salad time, the very cheese
is paler, for his scorn and lore.

Wit dies before his massy frown—
until, bethinking, from his files
he fetches forth a mot, and smiles!
And not a man or woman weeps,
though each one knows that we have miles
and miles to go before he sleeps.[/b]

And because this is a tetchy forum, let me go on record here and now as a very minor poet: If any fingers are being pointed here, it is at myself (and not at you, Gentle Reader), because I do have a habit of numbering my comments (1, 2, 3, 4) and that may seem overweening.

In the long history of Eratosphere, this subject has been surely been discussed, but I haven't seen a lucid debate on it since I came to this party.

It is a topic that lends itself also to contributions from more recent arrivals. It has, perhaps, less or no relevance for the knowledgeable and routined poet-members who have established a comfortable, albeit sometimes rough-and-tumble, repartee. The rules for TDE are posted at the door. But even in the kinder, gentler forums, it is imperative—IMO—that the critique is straight-from-the-shoulder, honest, well-conceived.

Hopefully both newcomers and seasoned critters will put up some thoughts on this.

So! With the view of getting and giving constructive crits, would anyone like to offer a comment?

[Tim Love]

I've only just discovered http://www.writingforums.org. It has a form on Reviewing - http://www.writingforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=71 - which also covers some critting issues.

I like http://www.a-l-kennedy.co.uk/books.htm - it's A.L.Kennedy's opinions on how useful/good her reviewers/critters are.

[Jerry Glenn Hartwig]

Jan

I like to hear people's opinion on what is not working in the poem, and I like to know why. I need to know if they're following the different levels - I like to hear their interpretations, even if they're not what I had in mind.

[Tim Murphy]

Of course it's necessary to know what's not working. The best is when somebody fixes an intractable problem with a bon mot, or even completely rewrites a line. Or proposes that I draft an entirely new stanza. This happens to me with considerable frequency. I can go through my present manuscript and remember the lines written by John Beaton, for example "Wolves have mothers too." It justifies and repays with interest all the effort I put into others' poems.

[Roy Hamilton]

Of course it's nice to be praised and sometimes when things get hot and heavy a kind word is like a cool drink, but the discerning eye is critical for me. I count myself as very much less read, if you will, or inexperienced and I really need the advice of the not necessarily senior members but adroit members, to say gawd Roy those end stops are tedious, or that's over the top, or that's just bathos. I like to experiment and I'm not afraid to take chances, because luckily I can say well I'm still learning. At some point that will get old but for now it frees me to try things many will not. It's all about the work and a hard look is invaluable.

forgot an "a"



[This message has been edited by Roy Hamilton (edited August 29, 2008).]

[Andrew Frisardi]

I like to know when and where the parts are rattling, a gasket is busted, or a flywheel is flying, when all I could hear was a purring engine. And I like people to weigh in on the B.S. factor: saying when something doesn’t ring true. All of it has to do with the "obedience to truth" I was talking about on the philosophy thread. Working at a poem is an incremental fine tuning of the truth it embodies, and intelligent well-meaning comments can help with that.

[Danny Capriotti]

I recently wrote a short entry for my blog (pacnadview.blogspot.com) about recognizing dimensions of our own lives by perceiving what ISN'T present in them. In some ways this is a much easier question to answer by pointing to the kinds of criticism that isn't helpful.

Among the least useful comment I've heard - not necessarily on this board, so much - is that lines in a poem are "cliched." I know that certain things are of the "I know it when I see it" ilk, but I've tried to ascertain a definition - even a fuzzy, flexible one - of "cliched" without success. "Roses are red/violets are blue" works in specific circumstances - if it is meant ironically, for example. I think I have a pretty sharp eye for cultural chestnuts and tropes, and if I miss a cliche I wonder if it really is a cliche - or if it is something else.

"It just doesn't work for me..." isn't invalid, it just isn't helpful - unless it is part of a mea culpa-type expression. It's sort of like teaching someone to speak Spanish by telling him or her when he or she has said something that you don't understand.

I tend to appreciate comments that focus on "form and function" kinds of things. Since I never hope to be a "working" poet, most often I write content that is close to my heart - subjective, personal and intended to inspire an emotional response. But then there are mechanics. The mechanics are, I think, universal regardless of the content, and most worthy of correction. I know that the line between the two isn't always clear or even discernible. But I'd prefer to be given advice about the technical than the contextual.

Danny

[Robert J. Clawson]

Word choice.

Violations of tone or voice.

Bob

[Henrietta kelly]

I don't care what is said as long as I know who has read the thing
say “curb it”
or ”keep it pressed between flowers “

or sign your name with a number out of five;
that would do it for me

henie

[Pua Sandabar]

Geee, I dunno, Janice.
Like Aunty, I find any and all feedback helpful.

Whether it's a speed-o-light fly-by thumb-up thumbs-down gut reaction, or a line-by-line anaylsis of sound and sense. A punctuation tweak, or the slashing of entire stanzas. A word suggestion, or an A-to-Z rewrite. A grin, a giggle, a pat on the back, or a stern and unmistakable shove in the direction of the nearest rubbish bin.

My favorite, and very likely the most helpful critique ever? One that I received very early on from John Boddie. It started out:

"This piece of doggerel is enough to elicit the gag reflex..."

Ha! Ka-pow! Did I ever work hard after that! In fact, I printed out the crit in its entirety, and kept it taped to my monitor for years!



[This message has been edited by Pua Sandabar (edited August 30, 2008).]