[Oriane Stender]

deleted

[This message has been edited by Oriane Stender (edited July 30, 2008).]

[Mark Allinson]

Hi, Oriane,

it seems no one wants to talk about the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E P=O=E=T=S – and I can’t blame them.

Are metrics people and Language people in different camps, like mods & rockers?

Yes, something like that.

Language poetry derives from the Post-structuralist movement of the 70s/80s, and involves the idea that language is encoded with politics, and thus any attempt to undermine Western values and Western imperialist literature must begin in the “deconstruction” of language.

Here are some of the tenets of L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry:


# Systematically derange the language, for example, write a work consisting only of prepositional phrases, or, add a gerundive to every line of an already existing piece of prose or poetry, etc.

# Get a group of words (make a list or select at random); then form these words (only) into a piece of writing—whatever the words allow. Let them demand their own form, and/or: Use certain words in a set way, like, the same word in every line, or in a certain place in every paragraph, etc. Design words.

# Write what cannot be written, for example, compose an index. (Read an index as a poem).

# Attempt writing in a state of mind that seems least congenial.

# Consider word & letter as forms—the concretistic distortion of a text, for example, too many o's or a multiplicity of thin letters (illftiii, etc.)

# Attempt to eliminate all connotation from a piece of writing & vice versa.

# Work your ass off to change the language & don't ever get famous.

Source

This stuff is very big in academia, where the anti-life, anti-beauty movement is most apparent today.

As you can gather, I think the stuff pongs like a wombats’ jockstrap.




[This message has been edited by Mark Allinson (edited February 09, 2008).]

[Michael Cantor]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Mark, except that I don't look on Language Poetry as affectionately as he does. And, yes, I think it is very much the province of those tone-deaf and talent-challenged academics who substitute argument for art.

[This message has been edited by Michael Cantor (edited February 09, 2008).]

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

It's not really my cup of tea, so to speak, and I do, of course, prefer metrical poetry above all others, but there's some interesting things being done if you don't close your mind to it.

If you're not already familiar with him, Ron Silliman is a good place to start if you're interested in reading about all kinds of poetry (including both metrical and "lang-po" with a definite heavy leaning towards language poetry.)
http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

One of the more ambitious and fiery language poets that I'm acquainted with is Jessica Smith.
http://outsidevoices.blogspot.com/

She seems to have calmed down alot lately and she's not nearly as accessible as she used to be - I miss arguing with her, though, and while I wouldn't admit it to her face, I kinda like the chances she takes and the envelopes she pushes.

Lo

[Oriane Stender]

Thanks, everyone, but Mark & Michael, don't hold back. How do you really feel?

From what I've read and heard, I don't like it either. I don't get it. I knew some of the lang=po people in San Francisco about 20 years ago, so I feel like I should give them a chance, for old times' sake. If I go, I'll be listening for the sound of a wombat's jockstrap ponging.

[Mark Allinson]

Thanks, Oriane.

But I must tell you that in Oz a "pong" (despite the sound of the word) is a stink.

And if, during the reading, you get that whiff of the decaying ectoplasm of spectral intellectuals reading pomo, you will know just how bad a wombat's jockstrap stinks.


It pongs!!!


[Yes, and "pong" rhymes with "wrong"]

[This message has been edited by Mark Allinson (edited February 09, 2008).]

[Oriane Stender]

It'll be a good reminder (as if I needed one) of why I dropped out of grad school. I think I still have some residual petty bureaucratic ectoplasm clinging to me; it's hard to detox from that stuff.

I guess it's good to know how to say "stink" in as many ways as possible. Did you have that early video game "pong" down there?

I'm assuming it's pronounced to rhyme with song, but maybe it's more like sponge, as in pungent?

[Janet Kenny]

Originally posted by Mark Allinson:

# Get a group of words (make a list or select at random); then form these words (only) into a piece of writing—whatever the words allow. Let them demand their own form, and/or: Use certain words in a set way, like, the same word in every line, or in a certain place in every paragraph, etc. Design words.

Eureka! THE SESTINA!!!

[Philip Smith]

I must confess I'd never heard of L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E nor of the poets who dangle therefrom. So I dutifully did a bit of research.

It seems to me there is much in common here with other forms of "constraint" poetry such as that practised by the Oulipo movement (including the Univocalism which, if done well, can actually be quite effective).

But all poetry is written with constraints. Those who think "Free Verse" is a licence to write any old thing are mistaken.

What seems to be at issue in these type of debates is the extremity or artificiality of the constraints imposed.

In music one response to what was felt to be the stale, worked out, infertile Western Tonal system was the Serial Movement. Its constraints seem extremely severe and artificial to me. And noone could have any doubts that it was a project that failed.

But Schoenberg, who pretty much fathered serialism, was no mug when it came to Tonal Theory. In fact his masterwork Harmonielehre is remarkable for the fact that 95% of it is devoted to demonstrating his deep understanding of the subject. Only towards the end does he say that (in effect) Tonality has nothing more to say. And he proposed a programme for taking music in another direction.

I believe Wittgenstein said somewhere (words to the effect of) "No matter how shakey the ladder you climb - when you reach the plateau of truth you will recognise it as such and then you can kick the ladder away".

Ultimately the issue about imposing constraints is about enforcing non-adherence to previous constraints and preventing the use of worn out gestures. If it takes you to a better place you will know it and will have been worthwhile. But you shouldn't mistake the ladder for the end product.

Serialism was a shakey ladder, deservedly kicked away, but it did open up new vistas for "serious" music. You could say the same about Minimalism.

So is L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry a pile of poo?

Probably too soon to say.

[Robert J. Clawson]

"The movement has brought together a dedicated and insular community...."

Just what we need, another insular community.

Shameless