[RCL]

Probably mentioned, but as I recall from grad school, ravens in OE poetry are called the “beasts of battle,” along with wolves and eagles—eaters of carrion.

[Janice D. Soderling]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_raven and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torresian_crow

Ross, no matter what anyone calls them—owls, pussycats or general nuisances—even in Australia, crows (Corvus orru) and ravens (Corvus coronoides) are two different species, though in common parlance the words might be used interchangeably—in Oz, as in the scholarly work referenced below. But that is moot, it falls outside the question under discussion.

I shouldn't have to say this, or maybe I should, but it is a well-known fact that fowl of divers species call just before dawn. Yes, they do. I have not claimed otherwise. Yes, ravens, crows, all the species of Corvus are intelligent. I have not claimed otherwise.

I am willing to concede that the bird in question may have woke Beowulf and his men just before dawn and not in the middle of the night.

That said, what my original question was about is whether it makes more sense to say that the term "blithehearted" blíðheort as in gæst inne swæf oþ þæt hrefn blaca heofones wynne blíðheort bododea , is more likely to be applied to the sound of a raucous raven or melodious blackbird.

Even if it is obvious that some words such as blíðheort (blithehearted) and ecge (modern Swedish ägg, pronounced "egg" = English edge as in "sword edge", the cutting blade) have retained their meaning down the centuries, the meaning of other words may have, or certainly have, shifted.

I do not claim to be proficient in Old English or Old Norse though I can hear/see parts of the text that correspond to contemporary Swedish. Note that I am not trying to sail under the false flag of a scholar, or expert in Old English. I'm just asking the question I always ask as a translator: DOES THAT SOLUTION MAKE SENSE.

I've found the original text in yet another translation copyright 2002-12, Benjamin Slade here http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html

Although in this text, "hrefn blaca" is translated as raven, the notes [1804-5] colloquially refer to a crow: "the crow caws at the sun-rise" ('joy of the sky'). [Note that the line numbers in each translation are unique and only approximate where the text can be found in other translations. One must always go by the line number of the original text. ]

Here is Benjamin Slade's translation of the text in question. If you are nerdy, go to the link above to read the Old English and modern rendition side by side.

sé for andrysnum ealle beweotede
who for courtesy looked after everything

þegnes þearfe swylce þý dógore
1797
of the hero's needs, such as in those days

heaþolíðende habban scoldon·
warrior-sailors were obliged to have;

reste hine þá rúmheort· reced hlíuade
rested him then, the large-hearted man; the hall towered

géap ond goldfáh· gæst inne swæf
vaulted and gold-adorned; the guest slept inside

oþ þæt hrefn blaca heofones wynne
until the black raven, the joy of the sky

blíðheort bodode. Ðá cóm beorht scacan
1802
declared glad-heartedly. Then came bright hurrying,

scaþan ónetton·
fighters hastening;

waéron æþelingas eft tó léodum
the nobles were back to their people

fúse tó farenne· wolde feor þanon
eager to fare; he wished far thence,

cuma collenferhð céoles néosan.
the high-spirited visitor, to seek his ship.

[Janice D. Soderling]

At the risk of seeming OCD, I'm adding a couple of thoughts.

One might argue that the "raven's joyous song" was meant as irony. But irony in Old Norse is usually laconic as in "It was his last swim" (Heaney's translation, no equivalent in the Tim&Alan ditto) to describe that the water monster had been killed—this is in the section just before Beowulf goes underwater to kill Grendel. (I do think that this text originated in Scandinavia as an oral epic and then was Christianized in England by some zealous monk but the Brits are famously masters of understatement).

I think it's in what I call The Lament of the Old Man, that the speaker's son is crucified and the hrefn pecks out his eyes, one of the truly great passages in Beowulf.

Tim, are you referring to lines 1259-1261? I don't see any reference to the crucifixion or to eyes of a hung corpse being pecked out. So maybe you mean some other lament?

If anyone following along is trying to sort out who and where with help of a modern map, I'd like to clarify the geography which might seem confusing. The English translations "Sweden" and "Swedes" refers to that part of Sweden called (still) Svealand, that is the area around modern Stockholm which however did not exist then, rather the nearby island Birka was a trading center the site of the earliest documented town. It was the target of the earliest attempt to spread Christianity to this heathen land, by Asgar. Uppsala (the old religious seat of the Asa gods) are located and was the seat of one of the early royal dynasties. The area called "Geat" refers to Götaland which in earlier times was not as extensive as today. Today it includes Scania, the southernmost part, formerly Danish territory. But in ancient times Götaland/Geat (and other spellings exist) referred to the lands around the lake Vättern, east and west, but earliest to the east. This is where I live, a history-rich area from the stone age to iron age to medieval to industrial revolution and beyond.

The earliest king documented by name in "Sweden" was Erik (around 970), but an earlier presence of Viking chieftains and small kings is indicated by artifacts found in archeological digs.

OK, I'll give everybody a break and stop.

[Andrew Frisardi]

Originally Posted by Janice D. Soderling

OK, I'll give everybody a break and stop.

Please don't, Janice. I'm enjoying it, as I think others are. It's all the more interesting that the question involves the place that you live in and know so well.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Martin Puhvel, in ‘The Blithe-Hearted Morning Raven in Beowulf,’ gives the example of Sigrun’s joy/happiness (fegin/fain) being likened to that of Odin’s Ravens ‘when they learn of slaughter, warm flesh, or dewy-feathered, they see the brow of day.’ Helgaqvioa Hundingsbana onnor(HHII) 43).
ELN 10 (1973): 243-7 : quoted in Old English and Early Medieval Latin Studies in Honour of Thomas D. Hill

That is interesting, Steve, and I'll certainly put it in the compost heap from which thought grows. However in the text in question, there is no hint of slaughter. Beowulf and his men are departing for home and encountered no slaughter on the voyage or when they arrive.

It is as if all these scholars are determined to get that square peg into a round hole, even if they have to take a sledgehammer to it.

Andrew, it must be similar for you, living in Italy, with literary and historic reminders around you all day.

Slightly off-topic, but it seems an opportunity to mention that last year I received the gift of the FSG Book of Twentieth-Century Italian Poetry (Editor Geoffrey Brock) in which I was delighted to find several poems translated by you.

[Julie Steiner]

The ravens I grew up with in the Mojave Desert (heh! and you all thought I was raised by wolves) weren't "raucous," Janice. Unlike the crows I knew, they had a much broader repertoire than just cawing. For example, they often made a sound that was sort of like a cross between dripping water and rolling dice, and I thought it was beautifully musical. It wasn't exactly like the one in this video, but close.

[R. Nemo Hill]

What a great video, Julie!

Nemo

[Janice D. Soderling]

As Eliot almost said, "It seems impossible to explain just what I mean."

Suppose we are discussing a story about a man known for his cruelty who has a collection of knives and the writer, in passing, drops the information that the man owns several dogs and each them has a very short tail.

And I say, "I wonder if the writer has specifically mentioned the dogs' short tails to draw attention to something. Writers don't (usually) waste words."

I'll bet a dollar to doughnut that the Spherical reaction would be, "Ho, ho, I've seen lots of dogs with short tails."

Or, "They might have been Giant Schnauzers."

Or, "Some dogs are born tailess."

Or "Some cats have short tails too."

Or "I had a dog when I was a kid and I was broken-hearted when our neighbor poisoned it. I cried for a week."

Or "I googled short-tailed dogs and found that there is a mutation in a gene called the T-box transcription factor T gene (C189G) which accounts for natural bobtails in 17 of 23 dog breeds studied, but not in another 6 dog breeds, for which the genetic mechanism is yet to be determined".

Or "Samuel Johnson said that a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on its hind legs. It is not done well, but you are surprised to find it done at all."

All of which proves that Sphere folks are natural-born writers and poets with wide-ranging imagination and immense creative talent.

OK, it was a raven, possibly from Scotland, but definitely a joyous, gentle, intelligent, and probably Christian, raven that woke Beowulf the morning he climbed on his longship and set sail for home.

Love ya all.

[Terese Coe]

Originally Posted by Julie Steiner

The ravens I grew up with in the Mojave Desert (heh! and you all thought I was raised by wolves) weren't "raucous," Janice. Unlike the crows I knew, they had a much broader repertoire than just cawing. For example, they often made a sound that was sort of like a cross between dripping water and rolling dice, and I thought it was beautifully musical. It wasn't exactly like the one in this video, but close.

Julie, I love that video--I'm sending it to my granddaughter, who will flip over it. One of the best, most refreshing creature vids ever! And the human is good too. The way the raven mimics the man is brill. Thanks so much!

[Steve Mangan]

Originally Posted by Janice D. Soderling

That is interesting, Steve, and I'll certainly put it in the compost heap from which thought grows. However in the text in question, there is no hint of slaughter.

No, but why pick on that part? There is the more relevant joy of Ravens at dawn (the example of Sigrun’s joy/happiness (fegin/fain) being likened to that of Odin’s Ravens ‘when... dewy-feathered, they see the brow of day’). And does 'joyful' need be mean 'melodious' (as in a black-birds song)? Cannot a 'Joyous song' (of Ravens or Warriors) be raucous -- a raucous song Joyful?