[William A. Baurle]

I’ll end this post by saying that I have working-class friends... - Andrew Frisardi

Andrew, I admire you like you wouldn't believe - but what is this about the "working class"?

I am a member of the "working class", the "Great Unwashed", etc, etc.

There are no classes of people. There are only individuals. Universals are not real entities. They don't really exist.

[Charlie Southerland]

Andrew F.

Everyone sees what they want to see. It is more pronounced regarding politics and religion. If a man in China has prospered under communism, it is pretty hard to dissuade him from that ideology and convert him to capitalism or faith in a higher Being. It isn't impossible but it's difficult. Another Chinese man down the same street might have been burdened and held back by communism and his desire to worship another higher power that the state collective and he won't be as hard to urge into capitalism or a robust faith in God. In fact, those kind of thoughts would get that man in a lot of trouble.

But in America, we don't have that problem, do we? Or do we? A lot of people just voted for the collective here. Their candidate lost by the electoral process. But she was certainly popular, even though fatally flawed. Her ideology is that it takes a village (her words, not mine) for humans to get along and prosper. Many on this very site voted for her knowing how flawed, dishonest, and self-serving she is. It was much worse than that though. They didn't care that she was the worst candidate since Carter or Kerry or Dukakis or Gore.

I will, at the moment, defend Trump and give him a little slack although I did not support him.The reason why? It's obvious. Hypocrisy. To be fair, Lehr didn't buy into her and a few others kept quiet. Sanders was a fool and let Clinton get away with murder. That's on him.

Andrew, I can answer nearly every statement you've made, clearly and objectively. If you wish me to do it, I will. But look at it from a sincere objective point of view. Ask yourself if Hillary Clinton wasn't guilty of many of the same things being slung at Trump. I'd have to say yes. Others would choke on that word, but they know it's true as well.

I think it is possible for Trump to do great damage to the country, but no more so than any other President in our history. He is considered a neophyte politician. I consider him as the consummate politician. He can do pretty much what he wants. Obama signed a ton of Executive Orders but I see no one on the left crying about it. A lot of what he did was extra-constitutional. And yet, now that Trump is in charge, the snowflake crybabies are screaming foul.

I suspect that Trump will do a lot of things I don't like.

I can't square his misogyny of women. I just can't.

As for conscience, I am always squared with my conscience. I came to that the hard way. As a Believer, I try not to tempt God. I place no stock in any politician, whatsoever. I live in Redneckville where it's just as corrupt as the big cities. It cost me a lot to learn that lesson. I don't forget.

Sincerely, since I am a Believer, I believe the scripture. It says (in Job, I think) that God causes men to rise up and to fall. He is always in charge. To me, it is a great mystery how he does that. I accept it as his will and go about my own business. I am in a small, a very small minority of people who believes this. I can't speak for others why they voted for Trump anymore than I can explain why anyone would vote for Clinton. My philosophy is guided by the premise that God does what he wants for his own glory, regardless what I think about it. I didn't always know or believe that. I am convinced of it now. Some folks will undoubtedly get hung up on that, they always do.

If a person truly looks at things in a fair light, all they have to do is see how hypocritical the other side is when that side is out of power. It goes back and forth like Lawn tennis until it doesn't.

[William A. Baurle]

I removed my comments per Julia's wise suggestion. I sent the comments to Charlie in private.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

"Trump's sweeping executive order on immigration includes a plan for sanctuary jurisdictions to publish weekly a list of crimes committed by aliens."

This tidbit reported in many articles today is among the top alarm ringers. Just think about the mind behind this and the sort of agenda that would be served by it. Also I post it here because the counter seems to be up the writer's alley. Can you use your writing to underline the welcome presence of so-called 'aliens' in our homeplace and their enriching contributions.

Genocide studies show that a population that actively refuses this sort of us vs. them pathology are the societies most likely to subvert authoritative agendas. See Ervin Staub's The Roots of Evil

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

Can we have a vote?

I would like to see a thread wee creative people point out the moves the State is making and maybe suggest ways to counter those moves or even get ahead of the curve. Maybe there could be several other threads for those so inclined like "How to think like perfect bystander" or "Arcaic Misconceptions of Other Cultures and Socialist Theory" or even "Why Calvin is an Antisemitic Bore Postulating a God Who Does Indeed Make Torture Look Like a Sacrament But I Have Sworn Allegiance to Him Anyway".

But I vote this tread is for those committed to resistance and looking for some feedback with a poetic twist. This is not censorship because, well....look! The forum is wide open to new threads of wonder and delight!

[Julie Steiner]

Originally Posted by Andrew Mandelbaum

But I vote this tread is for those committed to resistance and looking for some feedback with a poetic twist.

Cool! Maybe we can stay on topic and come up with productive ways to unite against presidential actions we think are damaging, rather than getting sidelined by taking potshots at each others' religions, political affiliations, etc.

Defending what's left of our democracy deserves--and requires--more of our energy than whatever happens to be left over when we're done pushing each other's buttons.

[William A. Baurle]

You're right, Julie.

[Andrew Frisardi]

I can answer nearly every statement you've made, clearly and objectively. If you wish me to do it, I will.

Obviously no obligation to do so, Charlie, but that is what I was looking for. The points you raised in your last post, about Clinton etc., are election-time points but we’re post-election now, and into the new presidency. Hillary has nothing to do with the list of negatives about Trump that I put together, which put into general terms the list of specific actions which Andrew M. made at the start of this thread. Michael Cantor has added to this. (In my bulleted list in my post #37, btw, only the first point, about conflicts of economic interests, might apply to Clinton, though no where near to the extent that it applies to Trump and his Cabinet of billionaires.)

I continue to be bewildered how those negatives can be seen as prices worth paying, to benefit (supposedly) from whatever Trump might do to stimulate the economy. The lack of explaining about that inconsistency is a regular feature of Trump support, from what I have seen/heard/read. To date, I haven’t seen a single clear explanation from a Trump supporter or defender about why those negative points are acceptable or worth risking or putting up with. Usually, as Andrew S. says, a defensive response is given, to the effect that liberals are sore losers, or that the "elite media" doesn't understand the United States, etc. The negative and even dangerous things about Trump are never directly addressed.

Also, about William’s post #41: There are no classes of people. There are only individuals. Universals are not real entities. They don't really exist.

William, I said “working class” because that is what is always said about how Trump won the election: white working-class voters made the difference, say the articles. I don’t put much stock in the term, and I have no money myself. I was thinking of people who both don’t have much in the way of economic resources or prospects and who work at some sort of manual labor or factory job or whatever (the sorts of jobs Trump always says he is going to create). The first is true of me, the second isn’t.

[William A. Baurle]

I am okay with your explanation, Andrew F.

[Charlie Southerland]

OK, Andrew, here it comes. The reason why Trump voters overlook, forgive, forget about all of those things you listed is this: Trump made promises to them and made them believe he would make good on his promises. It's that simple. Many people who voted for him didn't let anything dissuade them from going to his rallies and getting to the polls. He spent a lot of his own money, which meant he had skin in the game. Hillary spent a BILLION dollars of other folks money only to lose. Many of Trumps supporters have seen Republicans and Democrats fail to live up to what they promised and the electorate finally tired of it and said:no more. So, they took a chance on an admittedly very flawed man who was brash enough to call the rest of the crooks out on the carpet. He boned the media. The people loved him more for it. There was a groundswell of support for him over the preceding weeks before the election. I can go on and on about why he won and why they let him by with his faults. They are prepared to give him some time to succeed but not a long period of time. If he doesn't deliver on his promises they will turn and rend him.

The more the liberal left and mainstream media bash him, the further his supporters dig in.

If the left was smart (they ain't) they'd shut up and let him have the opportunity to hang himself. But they won't do that either. The media will keep stirring the stew and the left will oblige.

Trump only has to do about a dozen more semi-major things to carry him through the rest of the year. He's not, (as some would assert) stupid. The sooner people realize that, the better.

His time as a businessman and a TV celebrity will continue to serve him well, even if it means that many of his supporters will suffer for his policies. They're locked in. You nor anyone else is gonna get to them. You can make bank on it.

And if I'm wrong, we get Pence, who has none of that baggage to lug around.