[Nigel Mace]

In 2013, the Scottish Government published their proposals for Independence in a White Paper of enormous detail - a book of 670 pages.
That is the kind of detailed prospectus which does not require there to be any second vote to legitimise a referendum majority.

So, John.... if the Scottish Government had produced a White Paper on independence as flimsy and insultingly vacuous as that produced by May, fewer pages (49) of actual text than even the piddling number of words in the only operational clause of the Article 50 Act - and do it, like her, after the vote - then in circumstances of such manifest government irresponsibility, I would have favoured a second referendum in order to confirm or reject what had been subsequently negotiated.

If your 'Brexit' ideologues were the democrats they pretend to be, they would not now proceed to conclude any Brexit negotiation until it had been properly presented in a similarly full White Paper for democratic consent - or, if rejected, accept a return to the status quo ante. The truth, however, is very clear to see. The 'Brexit' vote in provincial England and in Wales is being used as a very thin disguise for an undemocratic right-wing coup. The only people "taking back control" in England now, are the extreme right-wing of the Tory Party and their jackals in the unpleasantly xenophobic ranks of Ukip - a combination whose democratic legitimacy is vanishingly small.

[Gregory Palmerino]

Somebody should start a Brexit watch thread. Ha! Otherwise, more prescient analysis from David Brooks at NYT, IMO. I'm always a sucker for literary analogies.

Cheers,

Greg

[John Whitworth]

Gregtory, that's all too clever for me. I don't understand the point that is being made. Never mind.

It appears, Nigel, that the 670 pages had no effect. You voted to stay. Perhaps you didn't believe it. Under your system Justin Trudeau, who came in as the Saviour and son of God, would now be unhorsed, since he is down tom48% on the ratings. All governments suffer reverses during their first year of office.

Actually I am reasonably confident we would win again but your system is asinine.

Michael, not a peep in defence of Dubbya and Blair? Perhaps you are wise to stick to poetry.

[Nigel Mace]

Gregory, what an aptly Faustian link. Apologies to doubltess wearied American, and other non-UK, members. I wish I could defend these 'Brexit' exchanges as offering you light relief from your own dystopian agonies - but, I'm afraid these seemingly arcane matters are every bit as serious this side of the pond and north of the border more serious still.

For light relief - or at least for a carnival of the ridiculous - you could try watching the Article 50 circus, sorry 'debates', on BBC Parliament, but on second thoughts I doubt if that would cheer you up very much. It certainly doesn't do it for me, though the Western Isle's MP, Angus McNeil asking the Chamber if any of them knew how many countries in the world had absolutely no membership of any regional trade agreements was a moment that stood out as a kind of high/low point of political comedy. The answer is only six - and that number does NOT even include North Korea. After 'Brexit', May's UK will be "going boldly" where even the "dear leader" has not dared to tread. Laugh if you can!

[Jim Moonan]

Gregory, the Faustian bargain is exactly what I think is going on. And, just as Faust found out, it will surely be their ruin (at least in the earlier versions of the tale). Many politicians take that route in lesser ways every day (bribes, cronyism, patronizing, lobby dollars, etc.) but this is the real deal. Politics oftentimes is the Art of the Faustian Deal.

Trump himself has made a Faustian bargain with Narcissus. In fact, many have gone the way of Narcissism in western societies. To paraphrase the Pope: Self-absorption is the gangrene of civilization.

[Gregory Palmerino]

Originally Posted by Jim Moonan

Politics oftentimes is the Art of the Faustian Deal.

I hear what you're saying, Jim. But politics is the art of compromise. One does not need to sell his/her soul to compromise in the service of the greater good. That's the rub, isn't it? We don't think in terms of the greater good anymore. It's win or lose and we have elected the ultimate win or lose president.

We are living in a necrophilous age, that is, the only approach to politics is destruction. I was reading an article from a conservative ezine recently in which the author claims that Abraham Lincoln and FDR were the worst presidents in our history. At some point, you will see dynamite taken to Mount Rushmore in the same way ISIS is destroying Palmyra. This is one of the reasons I enjoyed Julie's post #149 so much. The folks on the right that I talk to believe in annihilation at all costs. The thinking is, "If I can't win, you can't win." Destruction is all that's left.

Now maybe this has always been the way of conquest. The ONLY difference now is the existence of nuclear weapons. When stupid is as stupid does, we are all in danger of losing our lives.

Greg

[John Whitworth]

North of what border, Nigel? There is no border. The UK is one. Borderless. The scenes in the House of Commons look OK to me. Nobody is hitting anybody anyway. Those who find this tedious have no need to join in, have they?

But you don't find it tedious. You return for more.

[Nigel Mace]

Oh, Jim - Trump making a Faustian bargain with Narcissus is wonderful. Respect!

[Andrew Frisardi]

Looks like Narcissus shysted him, if the fate of Ivanka Trump ads is any indication.