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Unread 09-07-2024, 04:42 AM
N. Matheson N. Matheson is offline
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I'm glad you consider my existence to amount to no more than a firestarter.
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Unread 09-07-2024, 05:55 AM
Mark McDonnell Mark McDonnell is offline
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I'm glad you consider my existence to amount to no more than a firestarter.
I assume this is addressed to me, regarding my catalyst comment. N, of course I was talking about your contributions to this discussion not your entire "existence". At the moment, despite how often you post, you appear to have very little to say about Shakespeare's life and work to the point where it's unclear if you actually know much about either. You mainly just repeat the same obsessive idea about Shakespeare making all further poetry pointless and ignore anyone who raises any objections to this bizarre notion. If you genuinely believe what you said in post 117 then it's very sad and misguided. And now you seem to have entered the "Plan 9 From Outer Space" school of literary criticism.

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He was just so perfect, so above us pathetic mortals

Puny earthlings!!


N, I would think you were a troll if it weren’t for the fact that you have posted poems here that do show some actual skill, despite the archaisms that many here dislike. But you’re not going to persuade anybody to your viewpoint. You’re just not.

If I were you, I would stop engaging on this thread and take time to go back and just read it instead. Slowly and carefully, as if it has nothing to do with you. Read the well-meaning, thoughtful responses to your ideas and try to really think about them. Read the fascinating discussion from people who love literature and poetry. Break down your defences and try to listen.

Cheers.

Last edited by Mark McDonnell; 09-07-2024 at 08:36 AM.
  #3  
Unread 09-06-2024, 08:31 AM
Carl Copeland Carl Copeland is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark McDonnell View Post
Before Shakespeare began his writing career, presumably somebody else must have been "the best poet ever". Chaucer maybe? So, by your logic Shakespeare himself should not have bothered writing because, well, how could he ever match Chaucer?

And before Chaucer...
Yes, Chaucer is far too recent. And why limit ourselves to English poetry? Quintilian wrote:

“Like his own conception of Ocean, which he says is the source of every river and spring, Homer provides the model and the origin of every department of eloquence. No one surely has surpassed him in sublimity in great themes, or in propriety in small.”

I’m sure many would still agree a thousand years later. Shaun can correct me on this, but I read somewhere that there’s no evidence Shakespeare knew Homer. If true, it may be a good thing.

Last edited by Carl Copeland; 09-06-2024 at 09:02 AM.
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Unread 09-07-2024, 07:46 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is online now
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Originally Posted by Carl Copeland View Post
...I read somewhere that there’s no evidence Shakespeare knew Homer.
Perhaps not. But there is evidence Shakespeare knew N. He wrote him into many of his scripts. If only N. would read him more closely he'd see himself as Shakespeare saw himself — a player.

"All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages."


But N. doesn't want to be a player. N. doesn't accept the script that has been handed to him. N. won't play his part. N. hasn't realized yet that his part is being played by him no matter how much he denies it. He's not willing to learn how to play his part to the best of his ability. He's young yet. Give him time.

.
  #5  
Unread 09-07-2024, 08:07 AM
Carl Copeland Carl Copeland is offline
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If Shakespeare returned from the grave and started submitting to poetry journals and theaters today, I don’t think he’d get very far. The game is different now. Can you write better Elizabethan verse than he did? Probably not, but it wouldn’t secure your legacy if you did. The good news is that many poets after Shakespeare have made lasting names for themselves, but they played the game of their day. A few were ahead of their time, but I doubt any were behind it. Most kept their publishers and readers in mind, as Shakespeare did his producers and audiences. Try beating Shakespeare at your own game. That’s doable.
  #6  
Unread 09-07-2024, 08:47 AM
Shaun J. Russell Shaun J. Russell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Copeland
Can you write better Elizabethan verse than he did? Probably not, but it wouldn’t secure your legacy if you did.

Actually, while I agree with the sentiment here and what you're going for, I believe many of us actually could write better Elizabethan verse than Shakespeare. I mean that seriously. I still resist Susan's claim that the plays are poetry (it's a valid claim, and defensible, but not one I agree with when trying to delineate genres), so if we restrict ourselves to actual poetic output (i.e. poems qua poems), I would be shocked if many of us couldn't write a sonnet that could pass for Shakespeare.

One avenue that we haven't discussed is how limited Shakespeare's world was, and that relatively few people had the means to purchase books, and relatively few were able to even read and write. Shakespeare was active when there were maybe a few hundred people in his orbit capable of reading or writing poems. Sonnet-writing was often seen as a game -- one that emerged from court tradition dating back to Henry VIII, and continued through the end of Elizabeth's reign. She herself wrote sonnets, though they were unremarkable. Sonnets mostly circulated in manuscript form, often in coteries -- a group of friends (usually high-born) who would send their writings back and forth to one another. Importantly, they were rarely seen as serious endeavors. There was a long tradition of sprezzatura, dating back past Castiglione's Book of the Courtier (which was popular in Elizabeth's court). Anyone who praised a poet's work would be met with the poet's ostensible humility - "Oh this? This little poem? No, it is but a trifle I jotted down before falling asleep!" This is precisely why Sidney never published his marvelous Astrophil and Stella -- it was published posthumously in commemoration of his literary greatness (along with Arcadia and others). Samuel Daniel's Delia was only published because some of his poems were somehow mixed in with the first printing of Astrophil and Stella, and he sought to amend the error (an offense to the Sidney family) by making his edition distinct. The key point is that even if there was a common conceit among poets to have their verses last the test of time (the legacy that N. is going on about), there was a related conceit that their verses were meaningless scribblings.

But to bring this back around to my earlier point, when you have a limited number of people able to write poetry, and small groups that essentially egg each other on, the output is impressive for what it is...but is hardly representative of what is capable in the style and form itself. Nowadays, with high literacy and over a billion people on this planet who speak English, it is hard to imagine that some especially creative people could write Elizabethan sonnets as well as Shakespeare. Naturally, as Carl (and others) has said, there's not much reason to want to write Elizabethan sonnets these days, because our language has evolved, as has the breadth of our preferred tropes. That doesn't mean that Shakespeare isn't a great sonneteer, but context is vital.
  #7  
Unread 09-07-2024, 01:34 PM
N. Matheson N. Matheson is offline
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If such a thing were possible, in 400 years we would have expected to find a superior poet. No such person has arisen.
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