[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

Well, when and if the fence sitters make up their minds and actually choose a candidate, one wonders if they will be able to bring themselves to actually pull that lever (or touch that touchscreen) for fear of sounding biased in their opinion. You all get a gold star for being so fair and balanced. The truth is, unless you live in a swing state (and are an American citizen) your choice will not decided anything in this election. As I've stated several times, I do believe McCain and Palin will be the next pair in the White House. But since I'm not a magician, I cannot know that for sure. In the meantime, I have chosen a side that most closely reflects my personal values and I'm not afraid to say what I think. Your piling up on me says more about you than anything. Your castigation of me for having a firm opinion is interesting, but does not change my personal perspective.

Carry on with your game.

Anne

[Diane Dees]

You all get a gold star for being so fair and balanced.

I would rather get a gold star for actually paying attention and seeing through the smoke and mirrors of both campaigns, Anne. I am totally opposed to McCain and Palin, but I am also disppointed that many people do not challenge--and get really nasty if someones does challenge--the history of sexism, racism and bigotry toward the LGBT community in both the lives and careers (and during the campaign) of Obama and Biden. Or the myth that Obama raised more campaign money than Bush by taking pizza money from college students. The "Obama movement" operates on leaving behind values that happen to be very important to some of us.

Perhaps I see things more clearly because I am not a Democrat or a Republican. On the other hand, I long ago gave up my membership in one of those parties precisely because I saw they were not that different from one another--only that one was more hypocritical.

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

Originally posted by Laura Heidy-Halberstein:
Wise choice. I wish I could say the same.

They don't even get it, do they? With every article like this "we" become "them." Hysterical, overwrought, hyperbolic and full of innuendo, half-truths, and outright lies. No sense in calling McCain a fear-monger when you prove you can do the mongering just as well, is there?

You do not win a war of words by sinking to your opponent's level, you win it by insisting he join you on your own turf - and then making sure you remain above his reach.

Right now the gutter belongs to the McCain campaign - there's no reason we need to wade into it. Left to their own devices they're not going to be able to climb out of it.

Much better to let them drown all by themselves than it is to join them and sink with them. The fact is, articles such as these do little more than make they look better by comparision.

So Laura, you actually think YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM? That does not surprise me! It explains the way you communicate, always ready to go against any opinion. Shall we call you Saint Laura?

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Anne Bryant-Hamon:
So Laura, you actually think YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM? That does not surprise me! It explains the way you communicate, always ready to go against any opinion. Shall we call you Saint Laura?

Ya know, Anne, I had a whole post ready to go requesting information from you as to where Sarah Palin has said that she has used Esther as a role model and asking you to explain how, if undocumented, that statement is any different from any statement from the right which has said that Obama is a Muslim. (And I am not looking for the one unverified article in which her former Pastor at The Assembly of God says he thinks that's what she's done, either.)
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/...ica/church.php


In the lost post I also offered to back off as well as make a public apology to you if you could supply me the requested information.

I realize now the folly of attempted fairness and I'm glad I didn't waste any more time on it.

Show me, instead, where I said that I, personally, was BETTER THAN THEM? Or better than anyone, for that matter. The most I did was imply that people who stay out of the gutter are better than the people who wallow in it. I stand behind that implication. I fail to see, however, how that translates into "I AM BETTER THAN THEM."

And, you, Anne, you may call me either Laura or Mrs. Heidy-Halberstein. I consider being addressed by anything other than my given name to be ad-hom.



[This message has been edited by Laura Heidy-Halberstein (edited September 14, 2008).]

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

Originally posted by Diane Dees:
I would rather get a gold star for actually paying attention and seeing through the smoke and mirrors of both campaigns, Anne. I am totally opposed to McCain and Palin, but I am also disppointed that many people do not challenge--and get really nasty if someones does challenge--the history of sexism, racism and bigotry toward the LGBT community in both the lives and careers (and during the campaign) of Obama and Biden. Or the myth that Obama raised more campaign money than Bush by taking pizza money from college students. The "Obama movement" operates on leaving behind values that happen to be very important to some of us.

Perhaps I see things more clearly because I am not a Democrat or a Republican. On the other hand, I long ago gave up my membership in one of those parties precisely because I saw they were not that different from one another--only that one was more hypocritical.

Diane,

I don't know if you watched the Democratic National Convention or heard Obama's acceptance speech. He DID NOT leave out or leave behind the gay and lesbian community and their rights to be free from government/religious oppression. No, he didn't mention transgendered individuals, surely not because he doesn't think they have rights, but perhaps because the trans-gender community is truly a mysterious thing to most of us. I don't know any transgendered people (that I'm aware of), but that doesn't make me 'against them'. I doubt I'd have made mention of trans-gendered citizens in a speech. But I would have (as did Obama) mention the rights of gays and lesbians. Perhaps Ron Paul is the right choice for you. I don't know.

Anne

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

Ya know, Anne, I had a whole post ready to go requesting information from you as to where Sarah Palin has said that she has used Esther as a role model and asking you to explain how, if undocumented, that statement is any different from any statement from the right which has said that Obama is a Muslim. In the lost post I also offered to back off and well as make a public apology to you if you could supply me the requested information.

Laura,

Use Google. You'll find a good number of articles discussing that Sarah asked her pastor which woman of the Bible she should emulate as Governor of Alaska. He purportedly told her "Esther". Then you might want to read the book of Esther - a very strange book. If we are modeling this campain on the book of Esther, then I think Hillary Clinton must be Queen Vishi (yes, that makes sense if we are picking roles for this bizarro-world scenario).

I don't need an apology from you, Laura. Feel free to be yourself, and I will do the same. I don't think Saint Laura sounds ad-hom, but if you do, I will refrain from it.

Anne

[Diane Dees]

Anne, I despise anti-choice, anti-environment, pro-animal cruelty (the worst record in Congress), cockeyed economist Ron Paul. And you are talking about what the Democratic candidates say, and I am talking about their personal histories--what they have said and done before they were big-time candidates (and in Obama's case--even after becoming a candidate). Since you brought up LGBT issues as an example, I don't know about Biden, but Obama has shown on more than one occasion how he really feels about the LGBT community; he is a typical kind of modern "liberal" who has a number of prejudices but convinces people he does not have them.

Many LGBT citizens will support Obama because he is the better choice for them, yes, but that doesn't detract from his history. I'm not saying Obama would not help people in oppressed positions; I'm merely saying his commitment to many of them is not real. We have seen this before: Jimmy Carter, the so-called champion of women's rights, tossed women into the trash pile as soon as one of his advisers told him to. Bill Clinton, supposedly a supporter of LGBT rights, gave us DOMA and Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The commitment was not there.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Anne Bryant-Hamon:

Use Google. You'll find a good number of articles discussing that Sarah asked her pastor which woman of the Bible she should emulate as Governor of Alaska. He purportedly told her "Esther".

Two things, Anne.

1)What her pastor advised is different that what she might actually do. What "he" said is not what "she" said. And even what "he" said is not what "you" or your article said. "He" said, "She asked for a biblical example of people who were great leaders and what was the secret of their leadership" not "which woman of the Bible she should emulate as Governor of Alaska." which is what "you" said. Neither of these things computes into Sarah says Esther is her role-model.

2) The word purportedly means something. It means it's unverified and therefore suspect. Kinda like if Reverend Wright said that he knows Obama's secret plans for power and what he intends to do with it. Guidance offered is not always guidance taken.

Then you might want to read the book of Esther - a very strange book.

And what makes you think that as a formerly Catholic/currently Jewish woman I might be unfamiliar with it?

[/b]

[This message has been edited by Laura Heidy-Halberstein (edited September 14, 2008).]

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

And what makes you think that as a formerly Catholic/currently Jewish woman I might be unfamiliar with it?

Laura,

I'm currently a Universlaist Christian woman. And though I had read the book of Esther in the past, I did find the need to go back and re-read it in light of this very bizarre political season. Just because I told you to read it, doesn't mean I assume you've never read it. Perhaps you never forget anything you've read? I can't say that is so for myself.

You've stated on a number of occasions that you are a Jewish woman. I have no idea what that means to you, however. Saying you are Jewish means little more these days than saying you're Christian. Except for the fact that I have not yet met any "Christian atheists", while there are many self-proclaimed "Jewish athiests". well, unless you count those atheists who used to be Christians and are now atheists - but I've not met a one who calls him or herself a "Christian-athiest". Generally, they just drop the religious identity.

I'm a person who believes in Jesus Christ, but I certainly don't agree with the wide-spread delusion within Christianity that we are to "Take Dominion" over the earth and get rid of the infidels through political power and war. But come to think about it, the Christians are only emulating the mentality of those Old Testament Jews who acted in the same manner. Go ahead, Laura - call me anti-Semite - I dare you!

Anne

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Anne Bryant-Hamon:
Go ahead, Laura - call me anti-Semite - I dare you!

Anne

Why would I want to do that, Anne? I'm unsure why you keep taking this thread which you supposedly started to discuss McCain despising woman and Palin not only despising men but running her campaign on the Book of Esther and turning it into the personal.

I don't take "dares," Anne. I've got nothing I feel the need to prove to anyone. My opinions are my opinions and that's all they are. Anyone is welcome to agree or disagree with them as they see fit - there's really no need for you or anyone to throw schoolyard taunts around as I don't much care one way or the other. This is a discussion board and most discussions take place on the premise that people hold opposing opinions and views and are willing and able to discuss them intelligently and logically and that they will be capable of backing them up with facts when and if they are asked to do so.

It's interesting, tho, that you keep avoiding the conversation you started.

Did or did not Sarah Palin state that Esther was her role model? Did she, or did you, say that this campaign was being modeled on The Book of Esther?

That's the discussion, Anne....not my religion, not your religion, not your opinion or my opinion. You've made a politically and religiously charged statement as well as linked to an article with unverified information and you've asked us to accept it as unbiased and factual - I've asked for further verification. That's all.



[This message has been edited by Laura Heidy-Halberstein (edited September 14, 2008).]